Kneel At Consecration

[Paladin D]

My parish doesn't have kneelers. Though we may be getting some since we have an architect who will expand and redesign our current parish.

[M.SIGGA]

what if the priest says otherwise? I know of 4 parishes that still do kneel, but the priests there said it's according to whatever a particular priest commands at his particular parish, meaning it can either be to stand or to kneel.

[Dave]

[quote name='M.SIGGA' date='Aug 12 2004, 02:02 AM'] what if the priest says otherwise? I know of 4 parishes that still do kneel, but the priests there said it's according to whatever a particular priest commands at his particular parish, meaning it can either be to stand or to kneel. [/quote]
No priest has the authority to change the rubrics, not even the ones to kneel at certain times. So if a priest commanded his parish to stand during the consecration, the congregation would be bound NOT to obey.

[M.SIGGA]

[quote name='Dave' date='Aug 12 2004, 01:16 AM'] No priest has the authority to change the rubrics, not even the ones to kneel at certain times. So if a priest commanded his parish to stand during the consecration, the congregation would be bound NOT to obey. [/quote]
whatabout respect for the priest? As a kid I was taught sort of differently about how to act towards priests. Would it be better if such a priest commanded such a thing to listen, and then ask afterwards?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='M.SIGGA' date='Aug 11 2004, 11:23 PM'] whatabout respect for the priest? As a kid I was taught sort of differently about how to act towards priests. Would it be better if such a priest commanded such a thing to listen, and then ask afterwards? [/quote]
No, because you cannot obey a priest who orders you to do something contrary to the law of the Church; and both Vatican II and the [u]Code of Canon Law[/u] state quite clearly, that the regulation of the sacred liturgy is reserved to the Supreme Authority of the Church alone, and thus, no one, not even a priest, may add, remove, or change, anything in the liturgy. [cf. [u]Code of Canon Law[/u], canon 846 § 1; cf. Vatican II, [u]Sacrosanctum Concilium[/u], no. 22, art. 3]

Edited August 12, 2004 by Apotheoun

[cappie]

All have the right to have the Mass celebrated according to the rubrics duly approved by the Holy See.
See Redemptionis Sacramentum:

[58.] All of Christ’s faithful likewise have the right to a celebration of the Eucharist that has been so carefully prepared in all its parts that the word of God is properly and efficaciously proclaimed and explained in it; that the faculty for selecting the liturgical texts and rites is carried out with care according to the norms; and that their faith is duly safeguarded and nourished by the words that are sung in the celebration of the Liturgy.
[90.] “The faithful should receive Communion kneeling or standing, as the Conference of Bishops will have determined”, with its acts having received the recognitio of the Apostolic See. “However, if they receive Communion standing, it is recommended that they give due reverence before the reception of the Sacrament, as set forth in the same norms”.[176]
[91.] In distributing Holy Communion it is to be remembered that “sacred ministers may not deny the sacraments to those who seek them in a reasonable manner, are rightly disposed, and are not prohibited by law from receiving them”.[177] Hence any baptized Catholic who is not prevented by law must be admitted to Holy Communion. Therefore, it is not licit to deny Holy Communion to any of Christ’s faithful solely on the grounds, for example, that the person wishes to receive the Eucharist kneeling or standing.

[Andrea348]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Aug 11 2004, 10:51 PM'] If the rubrics say kneel you kneel.
The only exceptions are if you are an auditorium with something like fixed seating where you absolutely cannot get down. [/quote]
At my college campus ministry, we have an auditorium as a worship space. There are a few people who kneel the whole time, but it is hard because the chairs are so close together, you basically have to be on an aisle to pull it off. In order to increase the reverence, the priest has suggeted that the congegation bows after he holds up the bread and the wine during the consecration, however, not many people (only the active students) ever do this. We do actually kneel on Good Friday during the Let us Kneel, Let us Stand petitions.

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Andrea348' date='Aug 12 2004, 06:41 AM'] We do actually kneel on Good Friday during the Let us Kneel, Let us Stand petitions. [/quote]
Wow, I'd like to see that pulled off in an auditorium!

There was only one time when we didn't kneel... we were in the choir loft at St. John's University. There were kneelers, but no one knelt... and not knowing better, we didn't either...

[Anna]

[quote name='M.SIGGA' date='Aug 12 2004, 03:23 AM'] whatabout respect for the priest? As a kid I was taught sort of differently about how to act towards priests. Would it be better if such a priest commanded such a thing to listen, and then ask afterwards? [/quote]
Think about what you've just said here.
I've heard this same excuse used by victims of preditor priests.

If a priest is telling us to do something wrong, we MUST NOT obey it. Just because he is a priest, he cannot change God's law, or Church law, at his own whims.

Here's what the Vatican had to say in [i]Inaestimable Donum,[/i]
[i]Instruction Concerning Worship of the Eucharistic Mystery[/i]

Approved and Confirmed by His Holiness Pope John Paul II on April 17, 1980 (yeah, 24 years ago!):


[quote][b][color=red]The faithful have a right to a true Liturgy, which means the Liturgy desired and laid down by the Church,[/color] which has in fact indicated where adaptations may be made as called for by pastoral requirements in different places or by different groups of people. Undue experimentation, changes and creativity bewilder the faithful. The use of unauthorized texts means a loss of the necessary connection between the lex orandi and the lex credendi. The Second Vatican Council's admonition in this regard must be remembered: [color=red]"No person, even if he be a priest, may add, remove or change anything in the Liturgy on his own authority."[/color] And Paul VI of venerable memory stated that: "Anyone who takes advantage of the reform to indulge in arbitrary experiments is wasting energy and offending the ecclesial sense."[/b][/quote]

So, you see, there is no reason that so many liturgical abuses and nuances still thrive. They've known this ~ or should've known ~ for nearly a quarter of a century.

It all boils down to prideful disobedience.

We are called to obey The Church, not a disobedient representative of the the Church, no matter how high ranking he/she may be.

Pax Christi. <><

[ilovechrist]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Aug 11 2004, 10:06 PM'] Parishes in the US do not have a choice. [/quote]
THANK YOU

i was told in Charlotte that we were going to respect the other Diocese's wishes, and not kneel. it POed me big time!! we had PLENTY of space, so they couldn't say that the GIRM says something about in an auditorium where there isn't enough room..

cuz we were in an actual church

[Anna]

[quote name='toledo_jesus' date='Aug 11 2004, 11:50 PM'] Apotheoun, you are always awesome with the info. 



[/quote]
I agree. Apotheoun is awesome.

[quote]Now do you (or anyone else) know how to convince a female pastoral coordinator that liturgical abuses have been happening in her parish for nigh on 12 years?  As I used some of what you said in a 'eucharistic ministers' thread, in an attempt to address the constant use of EMoHCs, I feel I should tell you the response.  They follow:
1.  It's how we do things.
2.  We are not a people of rubrics.
3.  The (former) bishop lets us.[/quote]

It isn't your responsibility to convince her. You must inform her that these things are liturgical abuses which must be corrected, as the Vatican has stated that the faithful have a right to a True Liturgy. (See my post above, [i]Inaestimabile Donum[/i])

Then, according to [url="http://http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html#Chapter%20VIII"]Chapter VIII of Redemptionis Sacramentum[/url], if these are not corrected, you must take further steps to ensure that the Liturgy is protected from abuses:
[quote][169.] Whenever an abuse is committed in the celebration of the sacred Liturgy, it is to be seen as a real falsification of Catholic Liturgy. St Thomas wrote, “the vice of falsehood is perpetrated by anyone who offers worship to God on behalf of the Church in a manner contrary to that which is established by the Church with divine authority, and to which the Church is accustomed”...

[170.]...Where abuses persist, however, proceedings should be undertaken for safeguarding the spiritual patrimony and rights of the Church in accordance with the law, employing all legitimate means...[/quote]

I would definitely write a respectful, courteous, but firm letter to the pastoral coordinator. (Correct me if I'm wrong: didn't the Vatican instruct not to give women a title bearing the term "pastoral?") Anyway, write her a letter and keep a copy for yourself.
When she responds, make a copy of that, too.
If the problems are not immediately corrected, move to phase two: Write the bishop, (keeping a copy for yourself, of course) providing him with copies of your initial letter to the pastoral coordinator and her reply.
If you get nowhere with the bishop, the next step is to provide [i]all the information [/i]previously submitted, to the Papal Nuncio.

To work to protect the True Liturgy from abuse is to demonstrate your love for the Church.

So, as Dr. Laura would say, "Go do the right thing."

[quote]I do not feel bad about kneeling anymore.[/quote]
Never, never feel guilty about kneeling!
Were this post not already so long, I'd supply you with lots that the Vatican has said on the laudible posture of kneeling.
I kneel, as does my parish, during the consecration.
I kneel, even when others do not, in auditoriums or other buildings, during the consecration.
I kneel, although no one else in my parish does, to receive the Body of Our Lord, and I do so in every parish I visit.
And I kneel to drink from the chalice the Precious Blood of Our Lord.
(In fact, I once was able to spot a Droplet of Precious Blood, because I was kneeling lower than the chalice, and I could see that It was running down the chalice. I alerted the extraordinary minister of Holy Communion, with a gesture, since I had the Sacred Host in my mouth. He was thankful, and wiped the Droplet, before it fell to the floor.)
Kneeling is posture of profound humility and adoration. The Vatican says it's fine to kneel, and that those of us who do are not to be accused of disobedience, even when the American norm is standing (the universal norm is kneeling!)

Pax Christi. <><

Edited August 12, 2004 by Anna

[p0lar_bear]

[quote name='toledo_jesus' date='Aug 11 2004, 11:15 PM'] what do you mean?
I've been wondering if I am wrong to kneel when the 'communal posture' is standing. [/quote]
The posture for receiving Holy Communion is standing. The posture during the Consecration is kneeling. The poll is asking about the Consecration.

[Madonna]

[quote] what do you mean?
I've been wondering if I am wrong to kneel when the 'communal posture' is standing.[/quote]

[quote] The posture for receiving Holy Communion is standing. The posture during the Consecration is kneeling. The poll is asking about the Consecration.[/quote]

I think polar_bear means communal in the sense of what the rest of the congregation is doing.

I kneel during the Consecration. When I was in high school, we had Mass in the gymnasium. There was no way to kneel. I've heard that standing is an appropriate form of respect in these situations. It still makes me very uncomfortable.

While on vacation, I have attended Churches that stand during the consecration. I kneel. I don't care if I look like an imbecil. It just feels taboo to stand there. If Jesus is going to humble Himself enough to let me consume Him, the least I can do is get on my knees.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Andrea348' date='Aug 12 2004, 04:41 AM'] At my college campus ministry, we have an auditorium as a worship space. There are a few people who kneel the whole time, but it is hard because the chairs are so close together, you basically have to be on an aisle to pull it off. In order to increase the reverence, the priest has suggeted that the congegation bows after he holds up the bread and the wine during the consecration, however, not many people (only the active students) ever do this. We do actually kneel on Good Friday during the Let us Kneel, Let us Stand petitions. [/quote]
When Mass is celebrated in the Finnegan Fieldhouse auditorium at Franciscan University everyone kneels from the end of the Sanctus till the Great Amen, as is required by the rubrics in the GIRM.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Paladin D' date='Aug 12 2004, 01:20 AM'] My parish doesn't have kneelers. Though we may be getting some since we have an architect who will expand and redesign our current parish. [/quote]
Pal dear it doesn't matter if you have kneelers or not, you kneel anyway.