Defence Of The Trinity

[MorphRC]

[color=blue][font="Times"][b]Defence Of The Trinity[/b][/color][/font]

Pax Deus.

Ive had a lot of experience with Muslims and debates about the Trinity, one thing Ive learnt is, they're sources are extremely flawed, for instance this is the main definition of the Trinity by what Muslims will assign themselves:

[url="http://groups.msn.com/Islam4Allah/islamvchristianity.msnw"]Islam4Allah - Comparing Christianity[/url]

[color=green]God is three gods merged into one God. This one God is called a Trinity. However, to say that God is three is a blasphemy of the highest order. All three parts of the Trinity are "coequal" "co-eternal" and "the same substance." For this reason, this doctrine is described as "a mystery."[/color]

[url="http://www.kofc.org/publications/cis/catechism/getsection.cfm?partnum=1&SecNum=2&ChapNum=1&articlenum=1&ParSecNum=2&subSecNum=3&headernum=2&ParNum=253&ParType=a"]The Catechism of the Catholic Church: The Trinity Para 253[/url]

[b]Part 1, Section 2, Chapter 1, Article 1, Paragraph 2, SubSection 3, Heading 2[/b]

[b]253[/b] The Trinity is One. [b]We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the "consubstantial Trinity"[/b]. 83 The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: "The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e. by nature one God." 84 In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), "Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature." 85

83 Council of Constantinople II (553): DS 421.
84 Council of Toledo XI (675): DS 530:26.
85 Lateran Council IV (1215): DS 804.

Then you will need early evidence of the belief, prior to The Council of Nicea.

[b]The Didache[/b]

"After the foregoing instructions, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living [running] water. . . . If you have neither, pour water three times on the head, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" [b](Didache 7:1 [A.D. 70])[/b].

[b]Ignatius of Antioch[/b]

"[T]o the Church at Ephesus in Asia . . . chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God" [b](Letter to the Ephesians 1 [A.D. 110])[/b].

"For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God’s plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit" [b](ibid., 18:2)[/b].

[b]Justin Martyr[/b]

"We will prove that we worship him reasonably; for we have learned that he is the Son of the true God himself, that he holds a second place, and the Spirit of prophecy a third. For this they accuse us of madness, saying that we attribute to a crucified man a place second to the unchangeable and eternal God, the Creator of all things; but they are ignorant of the mystery which lies therein" [b](First Apology 13:5–6 [A.D. 151])[/b].

[b]Theophilus of Antioch[/b]

"It is the attribute of God, of the most high and almighty and of the living God, not only to be everywhere, but also to see and hear all; for he can in no way be contained in a place. . . . The three days before the luminaries were created are types of the Trinity: God, his Word, and his Wisdom" [b](To Autolycus 2:15 [A.D. 181])[/b].

[b]Irenaeus[/b]

"For the Church, although dispersed throughout the whole world even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and from their disciples the faith in one God, the Father Almighty . . . and in one Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who became flesh for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit" [b](Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189])[/b].

[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Trinity.asp"]Catholic.Com: The Trinity - Proof of Trinitarian Belief.[/url]

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[b]Next.[/b] I Will Make Up A Conversation, which I have had many times, and the usual anti-trinity arguement goes.

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Pax Deus.

[MorphRC]

[color=blue][font="Times"][b]Defence Of The Trinity[/b][/color][/font]

[b]The Usual Lines[/b]

[b]Christian[/b] | [b]Muslim[/b]

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[b]Muslim[/b] Who is God?

[b]Christian[/b] God to us, is God the Father, God the Son that died for our sins, and God the Holy Spirit.

[b]Muslim[/b] So God to you is 3 different Gods?

[b]Christian[/b] No. God is One.

[b]Muslim[/b] But how can God be One, when you say he is Father, son and holy spirit?

[b]Christian[/b] [u][Use Official Teaching][/u] This is what has been believed from the beginning of Christianity.

[b]253[/b] The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the "consubstantial Trinity". 83 The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: "The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e. by nature one God." 84 In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), "Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature." 85

[b]Muslim[/b] [u]Topic Swap[/u] The Trinity was around until the 4th or 5 th century, so how could have it been believed?

[b]Christian[/b] [u][Use Historical Documents][/u] Well we have documents from the first century, one which is a sub-apostolic writing, the Didache, which shows that the believe of baptism of today, and throughout history has remained the same.

"After the foregoing instructions, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living [running] water. . . . If you have neither, pour water three times on the head, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" [b](Didache 7:1 [A.D. 70])[/b].

Also the word itself, wasnt used until 181 AD by Theophilus of Antioch. As stated here:

Theophilus of Antioch

"It is the attribute of God, of the most high and almighty and of the living God, not only to be everywhere, but also to see and hear all; for he can in no way be contained in a place. . . . The three days before the luminaries were created are types of the Trinity: God, his Word, and his Wisdom" [b](To Autolycus 2:15 [A.D. 181])[/b].

[b]Muslim[/b] That guy lived over 150 years after Jesus, so how can he be trustworthy?

[b]Christian[/b] [u][Use Encyclopedia][/u] The New Advent encyclopedia states that he was a Bishop, the Bishop of Antioch. Which means he recieved his knowledge through Apostolic Teaching and Apostolic Succession, or the Laying on of hands.

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That is the basic arguements that happen. Once you prove the 3 gods theory wrong, they swap to the ad hominem attack on the authors, then if that fails, usually start with 'How did God pray to God?' totally ignoring the fact that Christ was Fully God and Fully Human.

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Pax Deus.

[phatcatholic]

good stuff, thanks for layin that out for us

[MorphRC]

No Problem.