Papacy

[dairygirl4u2c]

Does anyone here have anything they think proves that the bishop of rome back in the early day was more than just large and influential?

Usually I stop when people think they've proven their case only because I see that their proof isn't necessarily true and, in my mind anyway, says more against the Catholic Church. Now I will persist.

If you think I'm running away from the truth, by all mean bump it. And I'll do the same.

Edited August 10, 2004 by dairygirl4u2c

[Aloysius]

[url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=17515&view=findpost&p=305420"]Are you thinking of becoming Orthodox?[/url]

[Aloysius]

[url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=17136&view=findpost&p=305467"]what do you think of these then?[/url]

[url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=17514"]whether or not we can find something to absolutely proove it, can you show ONE THING that contradicts it?[/url]

[Ellenita]

[quote]Usually I stop when people think they've proven their case only because I see that their proof isn't necessarily true and, in my mind anyway, says more against the Catholic Church. [/quote]

Thereby suggesting that you do not genuinely want to debate or have an honest desire to learn about Catholic belief!

[dairygirl4u2c]

Those quotes are not proves if you read them in the context of a large and influential church.

I am working on trying to figure out what the councils taught. A lot of the councils didn't say too much by way of faith and morals. I don't have much to work with.

Then you tell me to go through the plethora of writings of the popes which I have no access to or that are vaque. And the writings I see so far are not until like 1800 plus.

But I am working on the counsils nevertheless.

Edited August 10, 2004 by dairygirl4u2c

[Aloysius]

I gave you Clement I and Leo I and then a bunch of more current popes. Clement I and Leo I are from the eaaarly Church. you have to do some digging to find writings of popes, it's not something people tend to compile alot. historians, Catholic and nonCatholic alike, dig through the writings all the time. There's only a couple instances they've found in order to attempt to disprove infallibility, Honorius and Zosimus and such, the stuff you've seen on non-Catholic sites already. That's the only stuff people can find, and they've been looking for centuries. as Ronald Knox (1888-1957) said to Arnold Lunn (1888-1974)
"Has it ever occurred to you how few are the alleged ‘failures of infallibility’? I mean, if somebody propounded in your presence the thesis that all the kings of England have been impeccable, you would not find yourself murmuring, ‘Oh, well, people said rather unpleasant things about Jane Shore . . . and the best historians seem to think that Charles II spent too much of his time with Nell Gwynn.’ Here have these popes been, fulminating anathema after anathema for centuries—certain in all human probability to contradict themselves or one another over again. Instead of which you get this measly crop of two or three alleged failures!"

People have been searching through everything the Pope has said for 2000 years for centuries and have yet to find anything that disproves infallibility. That's something IMPRESSIVE at the least, that no two popes can be found to contradict each other in all the things they've said. You might not have access to everything every pope has said, but historians have access to that stuff and they haven't found anything contradictory.

anyway, let's talk about what the early Church saw as the authority of the bishops.
[quote]"Those, therefore, who desert the preaching of the Church, call in question the knowledge of the holy presbyters, not taking into consideration of how much greater consequence is a religious man, even in a private station, than a blasphemous and impudent sophist. Now, such are all the heretics, and those who imagine that they have hit upon something more beyond the truth, so that by following those things already mentioned, proceeding on their way variously, in harmoniously, and foolishly, not keeping always to the same opinions with regard to the same things, as blind men are led by the blind, they shall deservedly fall into the ditch of ignorance lying in their path, ever seeking and never finding out the truth. It behoves us, therefore, to avoid their doctrines, and to take careful heed lest we suffer any injury from them; but to flee to the Church, and be brought up in her bosom, and be nourished with the Lord's Scriptures."
Irenaeus,Against Heresies,5,20:2(A.D. 180),in ANF,I:548

"Since this is the case, in order that the truth may be adjudged to belong to us, "as many as walk according to the rule," which the church has handed down from the apostles, the apostles from Christ, and Christ from God, the reason of our position is clear, when it determines that heretics ought not to be allowed to challenge an appeal to the Scriptures, since we, without the Scriptures, prove that they have nothing to do with the Scriptures. For as they are heretics, they cannot be true Christians, because it is not from Christ that they get that which they pursue of their own mere choice, and from the pursuit incur and admit the name of heretics. Thus, not being Christians, they have acquired no right to the Christian Scriptures; and it may be very fairly said to them, "Who are you? When and whence did you come?"
Tertullian,Prescription against the heretics,37(A.D. 200),in ANF,III:261

"Now the cause, in all the points previously enumerated, of the false opinions, and of the impious statements or ignorant assertions about God, appears to be nothing else than the not understanding the Scripture according to its spiritual meaning, but the interpretation of it agreeably to the mere letter. And therefore, to those who believe that the sacred books are not the compositions of men, but that they were composed by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, agreeably to the will of the Father of all things through Jesus Christ, and that they have come down to us, we must point out the ways (of interpreting them) which appear (correct) to us, who cling to the standard of the heavenly Church of Jesus Christ according to the succession of the apostles. "
Origen,First Principles,4,1:9(A.D. 230),in ANF,IV:357

"The spouse of Christ cannot be adulterous; she is uncorrupted and pure. She knows one home; she guards with chaste modesty the sanctity of one couch. She keeps us for God. She appoints the sons whom she has born for the kingdom. Whoever is separated from the Church and is joined to an adulteress, is separated from the promises of the Church; nor can he who forsakes the Church of Christ attain to the rewards of Christ. He is a stranger; he is profane; he is an enemy. He can no longer have God for his Father, who has not the Church for his mother. If any one could escape who was outside the ark of Noah, then he also may escape who shall be outside of the Church. The Lord warns, saying, 'He who is not with me is against me, and he who gathereth not with me scattereth.' "
Cyprian,Unity of the Church,6(A.D. 256),in ANF,V:423

"But in learning the Faith and in professing it, acquire and keep that only, which is now delivered to thee by the Church, and which has been built up strongly out of all the Scriptures....Take heed then, brethren, and hold fast the traditions[ie. The creed] which ye now receive, and write them an the table of your heart."
Cyril of Jerusalem,Catechetical Lectures,5:12(A.D. 350),in NPNF2,VII:32

"[T]hey who are placed without the Church, cannot attain to any understanding of the divine word. For the ship exhibits a type of Church, the word of life placed and preached within which, they who are without, and lie near like barren and useless sands, cannot understand."
Hilary of Poitiers,On Matthew,Homily 13:1(A.D. 355),in FOC,I:347

"But beyond these [Scriptural] sayings, let us look at the very tradition, teaching and faith of the Catholic Church from the beginning, which the Lord gave, the Apostles preached, and the Fathers kept."
Athanasius,Four Letters to Serapion of Thmuis,1:28(A.D. 360),in SHAP,133-134

"This then I consider the sense of this passage, and that, a very ecclesiasitcal sense."
Athanasius,Discourse Against the Arians,1:44(A.D. 362),in NPNF2,IV:331

"It is the church which perfect truth perfects. The church of believers is great, and its bosom most ample; it embraces the fullness of the two Testaments."
Ephraem,Against Heresies(ante A.D. 373),in FOC,I:378

"Now I accept no newer creed written for me by other men, nor do I venture to propound the outcome of my own intelligence, lest I make the words of true religion merely human words; but what I have been taught by the holy Fathers, that I announce to all who question me. In my Church the creed written by the holy Fathers in synod at Nicaea is in use. I believe that it is also repeated among you; but I do not refuse to write its exact terms in my letter, lest I be accused of taking too little trouble. It is as follows: This is our faith. But no definition was given about the Holy Ghost, the Pneumatomachi not having at that date appeared. No mention was therefore made of the need of anathematizing those who say that the Holy Ghost is of a created anti ministerial nature. For nothing in the divine and blessed Trinity is created."
Basil,To the Church of Antioch,Epistle 140:2(A.D. 373),in NPNF2,VIII:204

"For they [heretics] do not teach as the church does; their message does no accord with the truth."
Epiphanius,Panarion,47(A.D. 377),in PAN,168

"[S]eeing, I say, that the Church teaches this in plain language, that the Only-begotten is essentially God, very God of the essence of the very God, how ought one who opposes her decisions to overthrow the preconceived opinion... And let no one interrupt me, by saying that what we confess should also be confirmed by constructive reasoning: for it is enough for proof of our statement, that the tradition has come down to us from our fathers, handled on, like some inheritance, by succession from the apostles and the saints who came after them."
Gregory of Nyssa,Against Eunomius,4:6(A.D. 384),in NPNF2,V:163

"Wherefore all other generations are strangers to truth; all the generations of heretics hold not the truth: the church alone, with pious affection, is in possession of the truth."
Ambrose,Commentary of Psalm 118,19(A.D. 388),in FOC,I;171

"They teach what they themselves have learnt from their predecessors. They have received those rites which they explain from the Church's tradition. They preach only 'the dogmas of the Church' "
Chrysostom,Baptismal Instruction(A.D. 389),in CON,445

"But when proper words make Scripture ambiguous, we must see in the first place that there is nothing wrong in our punctuation or pronunciation. Accordingly, if, when attention is given to the passage, it shall appear to be uncertain in what way it ought to be punctuated or pronounced, let the reader consult the rule of faith which he has gathered from the plainer passages of Scripture, and from the authority of the Church, and of which I treated at sufficient length when I was speaking in the first book about things."
Augustine,On Christian Doctrine,3,2:2(A.D. 397),in NPNF1,II:557

" 'So then, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye were taught, whether by word, or by Epistle of ours.' Hence it is manifest, that they did not deliver all things by Epistle, but many things also unwritten, and in like manner both the one and the other are worthy of credit. Therefore let us think the tradition of the Church also worthy of credit. It is a tradition, seek no farther."
Chrysostom,Homily on 2nd Thessalonians,4:2(A.D. 404),in NPNF1,XIII:390

"My resolution is, to read the ancients, to try everything, to hold fast what is good, and not to recede from the fath of the Catholic Church."
Jerome,To Minervius & Alexander,Epistle 119(A.D. 406),in FOC,I:73

"But those reasons which I have here given, I have either gathered from the authority of the church, according to the tradition of our forefathers, or from the testimony of the divine Scriptures, or from the nature itself of numbers and of similitudes. No sober person will decide against reason, no Christian against the Scriptures, no peaceable person against the church."
Augustine,On the Trinity,4,6:10(A.D. 416),in NPNF1,III:75

"But it will be said, If the words, the sentiments, the promises of Scripture, are appealed to by the Devil and his disciples, of whom some are false apostles, some false prophets and false teachers, and all without exception heretics, what are Catholics and the sons of Mother Church to do? How are they to distinguish truth from falsehood in the sacred Scriptures? They must be very careful to pursue that course which, in the beginning of this Commonitory, we said that holy and learned men had commended to us, that is to say, they must interpret the sacred Canon according to the traditions of the Universal Church and in keeping with the rules of Catholic doctrine, in which Catholic and Universal Church, moreover, they must follow universality, antiquity, consent."
Vincent of Lerins,Commonitories,70(A.D. 434),in NPNF2,XI:152

"[H]old fast the faith in simplicity of mind; establishing the tradition of the church as a foundation, in the inmost recesses of thy heart, hold the doctrines which are well-pleasing unto God."
Cyril of Alexandria,Festal Letters,Homily 8(A.D. 442),in FOC,I:446-447[/quote]
All of those quotes say that one must interpret scripture by what the Church teaches, and anything contrary to what the Church teaches is contrary to what Christ taught

what they believed about the Apostles is clear in the words of Jesus in scripture, they accepted that
"He that receiveth you, receiveth me: and he that receiveth me, receiveth him that sent me."[i]St. Matthew 10:40[/i]

and you admitted on the other thread that they believed the Bishops to be successors to the apostles. You also admitted they accepted their authority to teach and the authority of the councils as binding on the true faith.

Edited August 10, 2004 by Aloysius

[Aloysius]

[b][i]The Holy Gospel According to St. Matthew Chapter 10[/i][/b][quote][color=red]40. "He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
41. He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.
42. And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward."[/color]
[color=blue]Jerome[/color]: The Lord when He sends forth His disciples to preach, teaches them that dangers are not to be feared, that natural affection is to be postponed to religion - gold He had above taken from them, brass He had shaken out of their purses - hard then surely the condition of the preachers! Whence their living? Whence their food and necessaries? Therefore He tempers the rigour of His precepts by the following promises, that in entertaining the Apostles each believer may consider that he entertains the Lord.
[color=blue]Chrys[/color].: Enough had been said above to persuade those who should have to entertain the Apostles. For who would not with all willingness take in to his house men who were so courageous, that they despised all dangers that others might be saved?
Above He had threatened punishment to those who should not receive them, He now promises reward to such as should receive them. And first He holds out to those who should entertain them the honour, that in so doing they were entertaining Christ, and even the Father; "He who receiveth me, receiveth him that sent me." What honour to be compared to this of receiving the Father and the Son?
[color=blue]Hilary[/color]: These words shew that He has a Mediator's office, and since He came from God, when He is received by us, [p. 401] through Him God is transfused into us; and by this disposition of grace to have received the Apostles is no other than to have received God; for Christ dwells in them, and God in Christ.
[color=blue]Chrys[/color].: A further reward also He promises, saying, "He who receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet, shall receive a prophet's reward." He said not merely, "Whoso receiveth a prophet," or "a righteous man," but "in the name of a prophet," and "in the name of a righteous man;" that is, not for any greatness in this life, or other temporal account, but because he is a prophet, or a righteous man.
[color=blue]Jerome[/color]: [b]Otherwise; To this His exhortation to the disciple to entertain his teacher, there might a secret objection arise among the faithful; then shall we have to support the false prophets, or Judas, the traitor. To this end it is that the Lord instructs them in these words, that it is not the person but the office that they should look to: and that the entertainer loses not his reward, though he whom he entertains be unworthy.[/b]
[color=blue]Chrys[/color].: "A prophet's reward, and a righteous man's reward," are such rewards as it is fitting he should have who entertains a prophet, or a righteous man; or, such a reward as a prophet or righteous man should have.
[color=blue]Greg[/color]., Hom. in Ev., xx, 12: He says not, a reward from a prophet, or righteous man, but the reward of a prophet or righteous man. For the prophet is perhaps a righteous man, and the less he possesses in this world, the greater confidence has he in speaking in behalf of righteousness. He who hath of this world's goods, in supporting such a man, makes himself a free partaker in his righteousness, and shall receive the reward of righteousness together with him whom he has aided by supporting him.
He is full of the spirit of prophecy, but he lacks bodily sustenance, and if the body be not supported, it is certain that the voice will fail. Whoso then gives a prophet food, gives him strength for speaking, therefore together with the prophet he shall receive the prophet's reward, when he shews before the face of God what bounty be shewed him.
[color=blue]Jerome[/color]: Mystically; He who receives a prophet as a prophet, and understands him speaking of things to come, he shall receive reward of that prophet. The Jews therefore, who understand the prophets carnally, do not receive the prophet's reward.
[color=blue]Remig[/color].: Some understand [p. 402] by the prophet here, the Lord Jesus Christ, of whom Moses says, "A Prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you;" [Deut 18:18] and the same also by the righteous man, because he is beyond comparison righteous. He then who shall receive a prophet or righteous man in the name of the prophet or righteous man, i.e. of Christ, shall receive reward from Him for love of whom he received Him.
[color=blue]Jerome[/color]: That none should say, I am poor and therefore cannot be hospitable, He takes away even this plea by the instance of a cup of cold water, given with good will. He says "cold water," because in "hot," poverty and lack of fuel might be pleaded. And whosoever shall give to drink to one of the least of these a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.
[color=blue]Remig[/color].: "The least of these," that is, not a prophet, or a righteous man, but one of these least.
[color=blue]Gloss[/color], non occ.: Note, that God looks more to the pious mind of the giver, than to the abundance of the thing given.
[color=blue]Gloss[/color]. ord.: Or, "the least," are they who have nothing at all in this world, and shall be judges with Christ.
[color=blue]Hilary[/color]: Or; Seeing beforehand that there would be many who would only glory in the name of Apostleship, but in their whole life and walk would be unworthy of it, He does not therefore deprive of its reward that service which might be rendered to them in belief of their religious life. For though they were the very least, that is, the greatest of sinners, yet even small offices of mercy shewn them, such as are denoted by the cup of cold water, should not be shewn in vain. For the honour is not done to a man that is a sinner, but to his title of disciple.
[/quote]

[Aloysius]

ALSO: let's talk about ironmonk's quotes and what they really say...
re-read these quotes in the light of what the scriptures say about the Apostle's authority, noticing those places where they say bishops are successors to the apostles (thus they are making the argument that to listen to the bishops is to listen to Jesus Christ Himself)
Pope Clement I

"Owing to the sudden and repeated calamities and misfortunes which have befallen us, we must acknowledge that we have been somewhat tardy in turning our attention to the matters in dispute among you, beloved; and especially that abominable and unholy sedition, alien and foreign to the elect of God, which a few rash and self-willed persons have inflamed to such madness that your venerable and illustrious name, worthy to be loved by all men, has been greatly defamed. . . . Accept our counsel and you will have nothing to regret. . . . If anyone disobey the things which have been [b][u]said by him [God] through us [/u][/b][i.e., that you must reinstate your leaders], let them know that they will involve themselves in transgression and in no small danger. . . . You will afford us joy and gladness if being obedient to the things which we have written through the Holy Spirit, you will root out the wicked passion of jealousy" (Letter to the Corinthians 1, 58–59, 63 [A.D. 80]).

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1010.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1010.htm[/url]


Ignatius of Antioch (Bishop, and trustworthy man who was a pupil of St. John the Apostle)


"Be pleasing to him whose soldiers you are, and whose pay you receive. May none of you be found to be a deserter. Let your baptism be your armament, your faith your helmet, your love your spear, your endurance your full suit of armor. Let your works be as your deposited withholdings, so that you may receive the back-pay which has accrued to you" (Letter to Polycarp 6:2 [A.D. 110]).

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0110.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0110.htm[/url]


You [the See of Rome] have envied no one, but others have you taught. [b]I desire only that what you have enjoined in your instructions may remain in force [/b](Epistle to the Romans 3:1 [A.D. 110]).

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0107.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0107.htm[/url]


[b]Follow your bishop, every one of you, as obediently as Jesus Christ followed the Father. Obey your clergy too as you would the apostles;[/b] give your deacons the same reverence that you would to a command of God. Make sure that no step affecting the Church is ever taken by anyone without the bishop’s sanction. The sole Eucharist you should consider valid is one that is celebrated by the bishop himself, or by some person authorized by him. Where the bishop is to be seen, there let all his people be; just as, wherever Jesus Christ is present, there is the Catholic Church (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110]).

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0109.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0109.htm[/url]


Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2-7:1 [A.D. 110]).

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0109.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0109.htm[/url]



Justin Marter

"We have learned from the prophets and we hold it as true that punishments and chastisements and good rewards are distributed according to the merit of each man’s actions. Were this not the case, and were all things to happen according to the decree of fate, there would be nothing at all in our power. If fate decrees that this man is to be good and that one wicked, then neither is the former to be praised nor the latter to be blamed" (First Apology 43 [A.D. 151]).

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0126.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0126.htm[/url]


St. Irenaeus

But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, [b]founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles. Peter and Paul, [/b]that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. [u][b]With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition [/b][/u](Against Heresies 3:3:2 [inter A.D. 180-190]).
[you [b]cannot[/b] explain THAT comment away, here he said that every church has to agree with the church in Rome! that is the essence of what we believe now!]
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103103.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103103.htm[/url]


The Catholic Church possesses one and the same faith throughout the whole world, as we have already said (Against Heresies 1:10 [A.D. 189]).

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103103.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103103.htm[/url]

Since therefore we have such proofs, it is not necessary to seek the truth among others which it is easy to obtain from the Church; since the apostles, like a rich man [depositing his money] in a bank, lodged in her hands most copiously all things pertaining to the truth: so that every man, whosoever will, can draw from her the water of life. For she is the entrance to life; all others are thieves and robbers. On this account we are bound to avoid them, but to make choice of the things pertaining to the Church with the utmost diligence, and to lay hold of the tradition of the truth. For how stands the case? Suppose there should arise a dispute relative to some important question among us. Should we not have recourse to the most ancient churches with which the apostles held constant intercourse, and learn from them what is certain and clear in regard to the present question? For how should it be if the apostles themselves had not left us writings? Would it not be necessary [in that case] to follow the course of the tradition which they handed down to those to whom they did commit the churches? (ibid. 3:4).

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103103.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103103.htm[/url]


"[Paul], an able wrestler, urges us on in the struggle for immortality, so that we may receive a crown and so that we may regard as a precious crown that which we acquire by our own struggle and which does not grow upon us spontaneously. . . . Those things which come to us spontaneously are not loved as much as those which are obtained by anxious care" (Against Heresies 4:37:7 [A.D. 189]).

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103103.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103103.htm[/url]




Tertullian

[T]he Lord said to Peter, "On this rock I will build my Church, I have given you the keys of the kingdom of heaven [and] whatever you shall have bound or loosed on earth will be bound or loosed in heaven" [Matt. 16:18-19]. ... Upon you, he says, I will build my Church; and I will give to you the keys, not to the Church; and whatever you shall have bound or you shall have loosed, not what they shall have bound or they shall have loosed (Modesty 21:9-10 [A.D. 220]).

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0407.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0407.htm[/url]


Where was Marcion then, that shipmaster of Pontus, the zealous student of Stoicism? Where was Valentinus then, the disciple of Platonism? For it is evident that those men lived not so long ago – in the reign of Antoninus for the most part – and that they at first were believers in the doctrine of the Catholic Church, in the church of Rome under the episcopate of the blessed Eleutherus, until on account of their ever restless curiosity, with which they even infected the brethren, they were more than once expelled (On the Prescription Against Heretics 22,30 [A.D.200])

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0311.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0311.htm[/url]


St. Augustine

But we know that God does not hear sinners: but if any man is a worshiper of God and does his will, that man God will hear. He still speaks as one only anointed. For God does listen to sinners too. If God did not listen to sinners, it would have been all in vain for the publican to cast down his eyes to the ground and strike his breast saying: "Lord, be merciful to me, a sinner." And that confession merited justification, just as the blind man merited enlightenment (Homilies on the Gospel of John 44:13 [A.D. 416]).

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1701044.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1701044.htm[/url]


St. Augstine has many many writings that can teach you a lot. He was one of the Bishops involved in Canonizing the New Testament... The Holy Spirit worked through him... Please read some of what he had to say about St. John 14:

Tractate 67 [url="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1701067.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1701067.htm[/url] (John 14:1-3)
Tractate 68 [url="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1701068.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1701068.htm[/url] (John 14:1-3)
Tractate 69 [url="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1701069.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1701069.htm[/url] (John 14:4-6)
Tractate 70 [url="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1701070.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1701070.htm[/url] (John 14:7-10)
Tractate 71 [url="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1701071.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1701071.htm[/url] (John 14:10-14)
Tractate 72 [url="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1701072.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1701072.htm[/url] (John 14:10-14)
Tractate 73 [url="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1701073.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1701073.htm[/url] (John 14:10-14)
Tractate 74 [url="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1701074.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1701074.htm[/url] (John 14:15-17)
Tractate 75 [url="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1701075.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1701075.htm[/url] (John 14:18-21)
Tractate 76 [url="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1701076.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1701076.htm[/url] (John 14:22-24)
Tractate 77 [url="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1701077.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1701077.htm[/url] (John 14:25-27)
Tractate 78 [url="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1701078.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1701078.htm[/url] (John 14:27-28)
Tractate 79 [url="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1701079.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1701079.htm[/url] (John 14:29-31)

See them all at: [url="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1701.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1701.htm[/url]

[MichaelFilo]

Ummmmm, can we disprove Aloysius's infallibility on infallibility.. after that?

God bless and awesome job,

Mikey

[dairygirl4u2c]

I wanted to continue this one in case someone thought I was backing out. Any one can take over as I've not seen this al around. Where ya at bud??


[quote]Follow your bishop, every one of you, as obediently as Jesus Christ followed the Father. Obey your clergy too as you would the apostles; give your deacons the same reverence that you would to a command of God. Make sure that no step affecting the Church is ever taken by anyone without the bishop’s sanction. The sole Eucharist you should consider valid is one that is celebrated by the bishop himself, or by some person authorized by him. Where the bishop is to be seen, there let all his people be; just as, wherever Jesus Christ is present, there is the Catholic Church (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110]).

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0109.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0109.htm[/url]


St. Irenaeus

But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles. Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition (Against Heresies 3:3:2 [inter A.D. 180-190]).
[you cannot explain THAT comment away, here he said that every church has to agree with the church in Rome! that is the essence of what we believe now!]
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103103.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103103.htm[/url][/quote]

I'd just like to note that the first one is meant to follow the bishops when they talk things from God. You will say, how do you know? The spirit will guide you. You have to have the same faith that you do for the Catholic Church. I'd rather trust the spirit the is leading me when I"m ready than to trust that someone else is leading me right. It's not as complicated as you all make it out. God commands us to love each other, and that is written in us all. YOu have to follow him.

The second one. They maintained the tradition by them because they were the most respected. They were the most respected bc that's where petter and paul were. That does not mean that the bishop of rome is infallible.

This is what it all comes down to. You can make theall these passages asy whatever you want.. just like the bible.


The philosophical point I made is worth discussing. All I ask is that you don't think that your interpretation is right. Because I have shown how it could not be. If your wrest on your interpretation, that is fine. There's two different people out there, those who want the answers given to them physically and those who wan the answer differently. Phycially and spiritually etc.

Just dont insist your interpretation is right or else you're simply being simple. If there were more evidence I'd think otherwise. I don't think it's reasonable to insist on your interpretation at all. If you think it's not for me then what can I say? We can agree to disagree.

I just don't hope you think I've not studied these issues as I clearly have. You an think what you want and I'll think what I want. You can think I'm avoiding or illogical or whathave you and I'll think you're the same about you. Not in a bad way, just teh way I'm sure we'll think about these things.

Someone can take over. thanx!

Edited November 23, 2004 by dairygirl4u2c

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote]You can think I'm avoiding or illogical or whathave you and I'll think you're the same about you.[/quote]

But if state honestly what can be known and not then I won't.

I only say that because some people won't acknowledge what they can genuinely know.

[Guest Aluigi]

[quote]I'd just like to note that the first one is meant to follow the bishops when they talk things from God. [/quote]yeah, okay, and things from God consist of anything dealing with [b]faith or morals[/b].. this statement sounds Catholic to me
[quote]
You will say, how do you know? The spirit will guide you. You have to have the same faith that you do for the Catholic Church.[/quote] of course you need faith for the Church. we contend simply that it's the same exact faith the early Christians had. anyway, this is a confusing statement; I could use some clarification for what you intended it to mean. you have to have the same faith that you do?? for the Catholic Church?? i don't know what you're trying to say

[quote] I'd rather trust the spirit the is leading me when I"m ready than to trust that someone else is leading me right. It's not as complicated as you all make it out. God commands us to love each other, and that is written in us all. YOu have to follow him. [/quote] can you trust the spirit leading the earthly leaders of the Church just like He lead the Apostles before them?
[quote]
That has to be the least honest interpretations of a quote I've ever seen.  I want you to honestly reread this and really ask yourself if there is a plausible way to say this says to follow the spirit personally regardless of what the bishop says.  It's impossible without completely blinding yourself to the truth.  READ it, don't go find holes in it, READ it.  what does it say?  Does it say let the spirit lead you and then if the bishop says something that agrees with where the spirit personally led you you should follow him?  I don't see that, nor do I see a plausible way it could be there!
Follow your bishop, every one of you, as obediently as Jesus Christ followed the Father. Obey your clergy too as you would the apostles; give your deacons the same reverence that you would to a command of God. Make sure that no step affecting the Church is ever taken by anyone without the bishop’s sanction. The sole Eucharist you should consider valid is one that is celebrated by the bishop himself, or by some person authorized by him. Where the bishop is to be seen, there let all his people be; just as, wherever Jesus Christ is present, there is the Catholic Church (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110]).[/quote]

It clearly tells you to be obedient to the hierarchy's dicisions regarding matters of God (what we nowadays would call faith and morals). And no, I cannot see it reasonably supporting what you tried to say it does. In fact, I believe that to be a ludacris interpretation that is completely unfaithful to the actual words in the quote.

Anyway, it appears I'm just insisting my interpretation to be correct. The problem is, mine is at least faithful to the text!

You contend that this quote means that you should "let the spirit lead you", follow the bishop when he speaks things from God, but ultimately only follow the bishop if your personal leading by the spirit tells you it's from I CHALLENGE THIS CONTENTION, and call upon you to provide any evidence whatsoever from Ignatius of Antioch that would support this interpretation. I submit the very text as proof of my interpretation, it says exactly what i am contending. You infer things into it that are completely unfounded. Cite a part of the quote that supports your assertion. Cite another quote for Ignatius if you don't think this quote is sufficient to say it. But as it stands your statement shows a contradiction to the text of the quote.

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote]yeah, okay, and things from God consist of anything dealing with faith or morals.. this statement sounds Catholic to me[/quote]

I'm not saying it's not in line with the Catholic Church. I'm just saying that it could reasonably not be.

[quote]
of course you need faith for the Church. we contend simply that it's the same exact faith the early Christians had. anyway, this is a confusing statement; I could use some clarification for what you intended it to mean. you have to have the same faith that you do?? for the Catholic Church?? i don't know what you're trying to say[/quote]

You have complete faith in the Catholic Church. Assuming that I am right, if you have that same complete faith in the spirit then the spirit will eventually guide you to where you need to be. Remember, people who are bad say they are being led by the spirit; don't say that my theory is impossible because of them. For one, their time to mature may not be ready, and for two, people easily lie to others and even to themselves about that kind of stuff.

[quote]can you trust the spirit leading the earthly leaders of the Church just like He lead the Apostles before them?[/quote]

Can you trust the spirit's leading the Catholic Church? You have to have faith in the spirit.


[quote]
You contend that this quote means that you should "let the spirit lead you", follow the bishop when he speaks things from God, but ultimately only follow the bishop if your personal leading by the spirit tells you it's from I CHALLENGE THIS CONTENTION, and call upon you to provide any evidence whatsoever from Ignatius of Antioch that would support this interpretation. I submit the very text as proof of my interpretation, it says exactly what i am contending. You infer things into it that are completely unfounded. Cite a part of the quote that supports your assertion. Cite another quote for Ignatius if you don't think this quote is sufficient to say it. But as it stands your statement shows a contradiction to the text of the quote. [/quote]

The bishop [i]cannot[/i] be saying what you are saying as even catholics would admit. Bishops are infallible; you have to discern their words even according to Catholic Church. So even RC's say that you are not suppose to follow the bishops when they are wrong. That's all I'm saying as well. Or else, you're saying that when a bishop tells you to go on a killing rampage just for the sole reason being that that day the bishop feels irritable?

So why can't we conclude that he was saying only when he talks about things from God?

I know you'll say that well at the the Catholic Church has a way to figure out when they are wrong with the pope and such. But you have no adequate evidence to support the early church doing this.

I challenge you to find any evidence whatsoever from Ignatius that he follows the bishop of Rome as final as you say he does. You'll find him respecting and seriously considering their words, but you won't find him doing what you contend without implying way too much. I challenge this contention of yours.


My interpretation is that you should consider their words as possibly being the the words of God - that's how you learn because people who are older and wiser and inclined to follow God can better teach you. If I were to say treat their words as the word of God to convey this, then I am not necessarily contradicting myself, I'm just not being abundantly clear so that I can use strong words.

It seems you guys are taking his words out of context because it can't possibly mean the straightforward reading. So it has to read something else. And at this piont you guys are reading just as much into it as I am I think. Though I admit, it does do more justice to a Catholic Church interpretation.. it's just that you have no other evidence to back that up. So ultimately you don't have much more ground to stand on than I do theoretically speaking.

Edited November 27, 2004 by dairygirl4u2c