Apotheoun Posted August 10, 2004 Share Posted August 10, 2004 (edited) [quote name='Anna' date='Aug 10 2004, 01:27 PM'] There is the particular judgement and the final judgement. And be careful about interpretting that we "become gods;" our belief isn't the same as the mormons. [/quote] You are correct, and the Catholic doctrine of [i]theosis[/i] is not to be confused with the Mormon belief that man's nature evolves into a divine being independently of the Trinity, and that he receives his own planet where he rules as a god. Mormonism is a form of polytheism, and as such is completely heretical and non-Christian. The doctrine of [i]theosis[/i] concerns man's deification by grace, in other words, man becomes a son of God in the only begotten Son of God. What Christ is by nature, man becomes by grace. This does not involve a [i]transubstantiation[/i] of man's nature into the divine nature, because that would actually involve the annihilation of man, and not his salvation. But just as one must be careful to avoid any type of a Mormon view of divinization, so too one must avoid any attempt to turn deification into a mere metaphor, because man is truly, and not in mere appearance, divinized by grace, and in the process he becomes participant in God's very life and energy. By grace man is elevated into the glory of the Triune God. Here are some additional posts from the [i]Catholic Apologetics Forum[/i] where I explain in greater detail the doctrine of [i]theosis[/i], with a special emphasis on its relation to Our Lady, the Holy Theotokos: [url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=14339&view=findpost&p=236358"]http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showt...ndpost&p=236358[/url] [url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=14339&view=findpost&p=240993"]http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showt...ndpost&p=240993[/url] [url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=14339&view=findpost&p=242068"]http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showt...ndpost&p=242068[/url] [url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=14339&view=findpost&p=242376"]http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showt...ndpost&p=242376[/url] [url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=15096&view=findpost&p=253949"]http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showt...ndpost&p=253949[/url] God bless, Todd Edited August 10, 2004 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JeffCR07 Posted August 11, 2004 Share Posted August 11, 2004 Todd, I'm familiar with your previous posts, but my central question is left unanswered. My question was less "what is [i]Final Theosis[/i]" and more "If [i]Final Theosis[/i] can only be truly completed when the unity of body and soul exists, doesn't this make heaven, in a sense, insufficient?" I will openly admit both the vague nature of my question (particularly with regards to the use of the word "insufficient") and that a degree of speculation is involved in answering the question. - Your Brother In Christ, Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madonna Posted August 11, 2004 Share Posted August 11, 2004 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='Aug 10 2004, 05:09 PM'] No, because Jesus' human nature was deified from the moment of His conception in Mary's womb, as St. John of Damascus said: "For the Word Himself became flesh, having been in truth conceived of the Virgin, [i]but coming forth as God with the assumed nature which, as soon as He was brought forth into being, was deified by Him[/i], so that these three things took place simultaneously, the assumption of our nature, the coming into being, [i]and the deification of the assumed nature by the Word[/i]. And thus it is that the holy Virgin is thought of and spoken of as the [i]Mother of God[/i], not only because of the nature of the Word, [i]but also because of the deification of man's nature[/i], the miracles of conception and of existence being wrought together, to wit, the conception the Word, and the existence of the flesh in the Word Himself." [St. John Damascene, [u]An Exposition of the Orthodox Faith[/u], Book III, Chapter 12] [/quote] That is a great defense of theotokos. I agree that Christ was deified from the moment of is conception. But wasn't he both fully God and fully man? And if would we be denying Jesus' humanity if we said He did not go through Final Theosis? I am not saying I believe that, I am just trying to question to understand better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted August 11, 2004 Share Posted August 11, 2004 (edited) [quote name='Madonna' date='Aug 11 2004, 07:20 AM'] That is a great defense of theotokos. I agree that Christ was deified from the moment of is conception. But wasn't he both fully God and fully man? And if would we be denying Jesus' humanity if we said He did not go through Final Theosis?[/quote] Yes, Jesus Christ is both true God and true man; and so, as I said in one of my posts on Mary's deification in the Phatmass Catholic Apologetics Forum, the deification of man doesn't destroy or annihilate his humanity. This is true for both Christ and for the deified Christian. Christ's human nature remains truly human, but from the first instant of His conception it was deified, because even in His humanity He experienced the grace of the Beatific Vision. In fact, not only did He experience the grace of the Beatific Vision in His humanity, but unlike anyone else, He is the source of that grace itself, and His humanity becomes the sacrament through which all men may experience [i]theosis[/i]. Moreover, the reason that I don't use the term [i]final theosis[/i] with Christ, is that He is the source of [i]theosis[/i], and unlike all other men, He does not move from a state of sin to a state of deifying grace; in other words, He is not liberated from sin as other men are; instead, He is the Liberator from sin for all those who are redeemed. [quote name='Madonna' date='Aug 11 2004, 07:20 AM']I am not saying I believe that, I am just trying to question to understand better. [/quote] There is absolutely nothing wrong with asking questions; instead, asking questions is a good thing. God bless, Todd Edited August 11, 2004 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madonna Posted August 11, 2004 Share Posted August 11, 2004 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='Aug 11 2004, 12:26 PM'] Yes, Jesus Christ is both true God and true man; and so, as I said in one of my posts on Mary's deification in the Phatmass Catholic Apologetics Forum, the deification of man doesn't destroy or annihilate his humanity. This is true for both Christ and for the deified Christian. Christ's human nature remains truly human, but from the first instant of His conception it was deified, because even in His humanity He experienced the grace of the Beatific Vision. In fact, not only did He experience the grace of the Beatific Vision in His humanity, but unlike anyone else, He is the source of that grace itself, and His humanity becomes the sacrament through which all men may experience [i]theosis[/i]. [/quote] That is absolutely beautiful and it makes sense. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted August 11, 2004 Share Posted August 11, 2004 [quote name='Madonna' date='Aug 11 2004, 10:32 AM'] That is absolutely beautiful and it makes sense. Thank you. [/quote] Thank you for the insightful and probing questions, for as St. Augustine said, "Credo ut intelligam, intelligo ut credam." God bless, Todd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kateri05 Posted August 11, 2004 Share Posted August 11, 2004 Just so everyone knows (not that your answers haven't been amazingly impressive, Todd! ) but Christopher West's presentation on Eschatalogical Man, from the Pope's discussion of the same, from the Theology of the Body, talks about this EXACT issue. How we are not complete, in a sense, in heaven, not because we are not experiencing the glory and grace of God, but because we are a physical and spiritual being and as such, are lacking if we have one without the other. THe Holy Father goes so far as to say that a soul without a body is a freak, or a monster, because it is disconnected. Of course, that doesnt mean heaven is ugly or anything... its just the idea. listen to the tape, read the book, it makes beautiful wonderful sense, i promise! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted August 11, 2004 Share Posted August 11, 2004 [quote name='kateri05' date='Aug 11 2004, 03:35 PM'] Just so everyone knows (not that your answers haven't been amazingly impressive, Todd! ) but Christopher West's presentation on Eschatalogical Man, from the Pope's discussion of the same, from the Theology of the Body, talks about this EXACT issue. How we are not complete, in a sense, in heaven, not because we are not experiencing the glory and grace of God, but because we are a physical and spiritual being and as such, are lacking if we have one without the other. THe Holy Father goes so far as to say that a soul without a body is a freak, or a monster, because it is disconnected. Of course, that doesnt mean heaven is ugly or anything... its just the idea. listen to the tape, read the book, it makes beautiful wonderful sense, i promise! [/quote] I love blessed Kateri Tekakwitha (and the Theology of the Body). :hearts: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted August 11, 2004 Share Posted August 11, 2004 (edited) [quote name='kateri05' date='Aug 11 2004, 01:35 PM'] Just so everyone knows (not that your answers haven't been amazingly impressive, Todd! ) but Christopher West's presentation on Eschatalogical Man, from the Pope's discussion of the same, from the Theology of the Body, talks about this EXACT issue. How we are not complete, in a sense, in heaven, not because we are not experiencing the glory and grace of God, but because we are a physical and spiritual being and as such, are lacking if we have one without the other. THe Holy Father goes so far as to say that a soul without a body is a freak, or a monster, because it is disconnected. Of course, that doesnt mean heaven is ugly or anything... its just the idea. listen to the tape, read the book, it makes beautiful wonderful sense, i promise! [/quote] Thanks for your post, and I agree, the Pope's teachings on the theology of the body are impressive. As early as the 1980s I was heavily influenced by the theology of St. Irenaeus, who insisted that man is not his soul alone, nor is he his body alone, but only when the two are combined as one living being is that truly man, and of course St. Irenaeus would add that the indwelling Holy Spirit is necessary as well, for it is the divine vivifying principle that gives man, body and soul, eternal life. This focus on the salvation of the whole man, body and soul, is why the Church, although influenced by Platonism, has never fully assimilated Platonism into her theology. kateri05, thanks again for your great post. God bless, Todd Edited August 11, 2004 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted August 11, 2004 Share Posted August 11, 2004 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='Aug 11 2004, 04:08 PM'] Thanks for your post, and I agree, the Pope's teachings on the theology of the body are impressive. As early as the 1980s I was heavily influenced by the theology of St. Irenaeus, who insisted that man is not his soul alone, nor is he his body alone, but only when the two are combined as one living being is that truly man, and of course St. Irenaeus would add that the indwelling Holy Spirit is necessary as well, for it is the divine vivifying principle that gives man, body and soul, eternal life. This focus on the salvation of the whole man, body and soul, is why the Church, although influenced by Platonism, has never fully assimilated Platonism into her theology. kateri05, thanks again for your great post. God bless, Todd [/quote] Remember some thread recently where tripartite anthropology was discussed? I recommended a book by de Lubac called "Theology in History". He has a radically facinating discussion on the relation between platonism, Pauline anthropology, patristic anthropologies, and such things. The conclusions are not what one would expect. I believe the influence of Platonism on such things is too often exaggerated and the truly unique (and most profound) elements of the Christian "philosophy" are overlooked. Peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted August 11, 2004 Share Posted August 11, 2004 [quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='Aug 11 2004, 02:24 PM'] Remember some thread recently where tripartite anthropology was discussed? I recommended a book by de Lubac called "Theology in History". He has a radically facinating discussion on the relation between platonism, Pauline anthropology, patristic anthropologies, and such things. The conclusions are not what one would expect. I believe the influence of Platonism on such things is too often exaggerated and the truly unique (and most profound) elements of the Christian "philosophy" are overlooked. Peace. [/quote] Yes, I remember that thread. I posted about St. Ireneaus' teaching in it. Here's the thread: [url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=17220"]http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=17220[/url] God bless, Todd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted August 11, 2004 Share Posted August 11, 2004 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='Aug 11 2004, 04:47 PM'] Yes, I remember that thread. I posted about St. Ireneaus' teaching in it. Here's the thread: [url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=17220"]http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=17220[/url] God bless, Todd [/quote] ahh, yessum. I had lost touch with that thread. thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kateri05 Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 [quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='Aug 11 2004, 03:43 PM'] I love blessed Kateri Tekakwitha (and the Theology of the Body). :hearts: [/quote] :wub: aww, thanks, i do too that's why she's my Confirmation saint/patronness... of course, considerin i have a vocation to marriage, maybe i should have thought harder back in 8th grade... BUT, as Christopher West taught me, her celibacy for the kingdom images the nupital meaning of marriage and vice versa so three cheers for the final marriage of the lamb!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kateri05 Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='Aug 11 2004, 04:08 PM'] kateri05, thanks again for your great post. [/quote] coming from you, Todd, that means quite a lot thank YOU and esp for all the wonderful, helpful posts you have! much love in Christ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JeffCR07 Posted August 15, 2004 Share Posted August 15, 2004 cool, you guys have answered all of my questions, thanks a ton! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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