Infallibility?

[dairygirl4u2c]

Salvation outside the Church

I can't believe the second quote in this first section isn't used much. It pretty much explicity rejects the clause given by VII. (was that Pius IX writing not infallible or what?) You can still make it work, though, but now it's really pushin it.

[quote]“[It is an error to say that] adherents of any religion can find the way of eternal salvation and obtain eternal salvation.”
Pius IX Syllabus of Errors (1864 AD), Denz. 1716.

“[It is an error to say that] at least we may hope that all those who have never been involved in the true Church of Christ will find eternal salvation.” [Pius IX Syllabus of Errors (1864 AD), Denz. 1717.[/quote]
vs.
[quote]“Those also can attain to everlasting salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, yet sincerely seek God and, moved by grace, strive by their deeds to do his will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.”
Vatican II, Lumen Gentium (AD 1964) § 16. [/quote]



Status of Non Catholic Religions
[quote]“[It is an error to say that] it is praiseworthy that in certain Catholic countries it is provided for by law that people who immigrate from outside may publicly exercise their own form of worship.”
Pius IX Syllabus of Errors (1864 AD), Denz. 1778. [/quote]
vs.
[quote]“Religious bodies rightfully claim freedom to govern themselves according to their own norms, honour the Supreme Being in public worship, assist their members in the practice of the religious life, strengthen them by instruction and promote institutions by which they may join together for the purpose of ordering their own lives in accordance with their own religious principles.”
Vatican II, Dignitatis Humanae (1965 AD) § 5. [/quote]

Maybe it's because Pius IX used the word praiseworthy?


I think given what we have to work with, this isn't too bad.

Edited August 10, 2004 by dairygirl4u2c

[Aloysius]

This was my point in the other thread.

[quote]“[It is an error to say that] adherents of any religion can find the way of eternal salvation and obtain eternal salvation.”
Pius IX Syllabus of Errors (1864 AD), Denz. 1716.
“[It is an error to say that] at least we may hope that [b]all [/b]those who have never been involved in the true Church of Christ will find eternal salvation.” [Pius IX Syllabus of Errors (1864 AD), Denz. 1717.

“Those also can attain to everlasting salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, yet sincerely seek God and, moved by grace, strive by their deeds to do his will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.”
Vatican II, Lumen Gentium (AD 1964) § 16.  [/quote]


The Syllabus of Errors is correct: he condemns Religious Relativism, the idea that someone following any other relgiion that Catholocism will be able to find salvation through that religion. Vatican II, clarifying the position held by St. Thomas Aquinas and Pope St. Pius X and Pope Pius XII, that some who are not explicitly members of the Church can have an implicit membership in that Church and BY THE CHURCH can be saved. NOT by their other religion. Their other religion can help them further understand some certain Catholic Truths but it itself cannot save them, only the Catholic Church can save someone.

[quote]“[It is an error to say that] it is praiseworthy that in certain Catholic countries it is provided for by law that people who immigrate from outside may publicly exercise their own form of worship.”
Pius IX Syllabus of Errors (1864 AD), Denz. 1778. 

“Religious bodies rightfully claim freedom to govern themselves according to their own norms, honour the Supreme Being in public worship, assist their members in the practice of the religious life, strengthen them by instruction and promote institutions by which they may join together for the purpose of ordering their own lives in accordance with their own religious principles.”
Vatican II, Dignitatis Humanae (1965 AD) § 5. 
[/quote]
A Catholic Nation should not ignore other religions and allow for them to be practiced. A Nation that is not Catholic may not impose itself against Catholic Morality. The state has the moral right to make laws in accordance with Catholic Morality. The state does not have the moral right to make laws that oppose Catholic Morality.

Anyway, this is what my point was in "Freedom of religion: both wrong and right"
Freedom of Religion is wrong insomuch as it calls for the relativist view by which one allows other forms of worship in opposition to the Holy Mass without the attempt to change their hearts and minds. Vatican II forbids states from forcing outside coercian in order to stop them from doing this, the person should be allowed the ability to do that if they wish so long as there is no just Catholic Authority in power which would act to provide a society which convinces people to change their hearts and minds to become Catholic by choice. The State should never simply impose an outside force of coersian to make someone attend mass.

[Guest JeffCR07]

Dairygirl, while Al is correct in his analysis of the two teachings, I just want to tell you that it seems to me you have a good grasp of the challenge, and are bringing up cases that - while they have clear cut answers - can be confusing upon their first reading. Keep it up!

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff

[Aloysius]

bump in case dairygirl didn't see my explanation because she still asserts that there's some sort of 'no salvation outside' and 'salvation outside' controversy.

[b]Catechism of St. Pius X[/b]
[i]Artical 9[/i]
[quote]27 Q: Can one be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic and Roman Church?
A: No, no one can be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic Roman Church, just as no one could be saved from the flood outside the Ark of Noah, which was a figure of the Church.

28 Q: How, then, were the Patriarchs of old, the Prophets, and the other just men of the Old Testament, saved?
A: The just of the Old Testament were saved in virtue of the faith they had in Christ to come, by means of which they spiritually belonged to the Church.

[b]29 Q: But if a man through no fault of his own is outside the Church, can he be saved?
A: If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God's will as best he can such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation [/b]

30 Q: Suppose that a man is a member of the Catholic Church, but does not put her teaching into practice, will he be saved?
A: He who is a member of the Catholic Church and does not put her teaching into practice is a dead member, and hence will not be saved; for towards the salvation of an adult not only Baptism and faith are required, but, furthermore, works in keeping with faith.

[/quote]