Challenge To Dairygirl

[Aloysius]

I'm gonna make Ironmonk's challenge simply for you:
here are the infallible statements of the councils of the Early Church
[quote][url="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3801.htm"]Nicaea I[/url]
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3808.htm"]Constantinople I[/url]
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3810.htm"]Ephesus[/url]
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3811.htm"]Chelcedon[/url]
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3812.htm"]Constantinople II[/url]
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3813.htm"]Constantinople III[/url]
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3819.htm"]Nicaea II[/url]
[/quote]

find one statement there that contradicts one statement in any of these catechisms
[quote][url="http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/entiretoc1.htm"]Catechism[/url]
[url="http://www.cin.org/users/james/ebooks/master/aquinas/aindex.htm"]St. Thomas Aquinas's Catechism[/url]
[url="http://www.cin.org/users/james/ebooks/master/trent/tindex.htm"]Catechism of the Council of Trent[/url]
[url="http://www.cin.org/users/james/ebooks/master/baltimore/bindex.htm"]Baltimore Catechism[/url]
[url="http://www.cin.org/users/james/ebooks/master/pius/pindex.htm"]Catechism of Pope St. Pius X[/url][/quote]

I simplified it to those things for you because you can't seem to understand the theory that the ECFs AGREE with the Current Catholic Church.

Anyway: if you want to take this challenge do it in this thread.

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote]but I simplified it for you to make it so you only had to get ONE quote from the Early Church and ONE quote from the Catechism.[/quote]

See, you're being too simple again, you must be. Or else -- Firmilian. nuff said.



[quote] I explained that I was simplifying it for you.

Ironmonk's challenge is basically show the consensus of the Church Fathers opposing current Catholic Teaching. Because the Church Fathers are the Church's first bishops, so if they all have consensus on a teaching they are infallible. but I simplified it for you to make it so you only had to get ONE quote from the Early Church and ONE quote from the Catechism. the second part of Ironmonk's challenge requires you get ONE quote from the Catechism and MULTIPLE quotes from VARIOUS ECF's that all contradict the Catechism. [/quote]


You shouldn't be dumbing down the original proposal. If there are other means to prove the Catholic Church wrong then clarify. I think you're not really sure, which just goes to show it needs clarified. I don't need it simplified for me, but thanks.

For example, can we find consensus that contradicted or not? For example, I would maybe look to see if consensuses of bishops thought that any noncatholic whatsoever who dies outside the Catholic Church would be hellbound. But only if you allow that. You did say consensus in the other thread.

Don't simplify it if by that you are dumbing it down. In fact, don't say or do the simplify... why don't we try clarify.

[quote]the second part of Ironmonk's challenge requires you get ONE quote from the Catechism and MULTIPLE quotes from VARIOUS ECF's that all contradict the Catechism.[/quote]

Then he should say it. And say how many would be sufficient.

Who counts? The Catholic Church would only say the saints that upheld their position are official bishops of the Church. There are other bishops that aren't called bishops of the Church. So unless I'm mistaken what you mean and Firmilian and such counts. You need to clarify who is legitimate bishops.

I think it will then go back to the consensus and cousils thing correct? How should we gauge the number of bishops?

And I know you'd think it cheap but I might throw the card that the Catholic Church is the one who preserved the early early writings. How can we know which survived? And if Antioch where Ignatius is from is one of the few that did, what can we say about the other like six churches that existed?

I know I'm throwing out a lot but it's how to think outside the box. But I willl look into the counsils for contradiction.

Again please do not simplify, just clarify.

Edited August 9, 2004 by dairygirl4u2c

[Aloysius]

read Ironmonk's challenge. it says find writing[b][u]s[/u][/b] of the ECFs that contradict current Catholic Teaching. that means multiple quotes from these Early Church Fathers, such as Augustine, Origen, Ignatius, Alexander, Ambrose, Jerome, and Clement all taught such and such (providing quotes of each) but the Catholic Church teaches such and such (provide quote from the Catechism)

now, anything contained in one of these councils in the links above is automatically considered the consensus of the Bishops. if you could just find one of those to be in contradiction to Catholic Teaching it'd save you a lot of effort to try to proove it was a consensus by getting many quotes. One quote from a council would suffice as being the consensus of the Bishops in communion with the Pope of the early Church.

Edited August 9, 2004 by Aloysius