[jas] Posted September 17, 2003 Share Posted September 17, 2003 How can you have faith in a book, if you don't have faith in the people who put it togethert? Because I have faith in the author. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Huether Posted September 17, 2003 Share Posted September 17, 2003 ,Sep 17 2003, 06:51 AM] Because I have faith in the author. How do you know the author of those Books was God? If you say that Scripture tells you so (that verse that says, all Scripture is inspired by God) - then please elaborate on how you know what "Scripture" is. If it wasn't bound under one cover and labeled as "Bible", would you be able to tell that Pauls 1st letter to the Corrinthians was Scripture and, say, his 7th letter wasn't? Sure, the Bible says that Scripture is of God - but how do you know what is Scripture, who told you? If the Catholic Church didn't exist, then do you believe that the same books would have been picked regardless? If so, on what do you base this? Faith? How do you know it wasn't Satan who compiled those books in an effort to skew what the real "Jesus" taught? There are many many writings by the Apostles that weren't considered for cannonization? Why do you "trust" that the books picked are really Scripture, inspired by God? If you trust that the Bible is correct, then you MUST trust that the people who chose them were right? And if they were right once, explain how they aren't right anymore? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted September 17, 2003 Share Posted September 17, 2003 An Accurate Text Sir Frederic Kenyon, in The Story of the Bible, notes that "For all the works of classical antiquity we have to depend on manuscripts written long after their original composition. The author who is the best case in this respect is Virgil, yet the earliest manuscript of Virgil that we now possess was written some 350 years after his death. For all other classical writers, the interval between the date of the author and the earliest extant manuscript of his works is much greater. For Livy it is about 500 years, for Horace 900, for most of Plato 1,300, for Euripides 1,600." Yet no one seriously disputes that we have accurate copies of the works of these writers. However, in the case of the New Testament we have parts of manuscripts dating from the first and early second centuries, only a few decades after the works were penned. Not only are the biblical manuscripts that we have older than those for classical authors, we have in sheer numbers far more manuscripts from which to work. Some are whole books of the Bible, others fragments of just a few words, but there are literally thousands of manuscripts in Hebrew, Greek, Latin, Coptic, Syriac, and other languages. This means that we can be sure we have an accurate text, and we can work from it with confidence. The Bible as Historical Truth Next we take a look at what the Bible, considered merely as a history, tells us, focusing particularly on the New Testament, and more specifically the Gospels. We examine the account contained therein of Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection. Using what is in the Gospels themselves and what we find in extra-biblical writings from the early centuries, together with what we know of human nature (and what we can otherwise, from natural reason alone, know of divine nature), we conclude that either Jesus was just what he claimed to be—God—or he was crazy. (The one thing we know he could not have been was merely a good man who was not God, since no merely good man would make the claims he made.) We are able to eliminate the possibility of his being a madman not just from what he said but from what his followers did after his death. Many critics of the Gospel accounts of the resurrection claim that Christ did not truly rise, that his followers took his body from the tomb and then proclaimed him risen from the dead. According to these critics, the resurrection was nothing more than a hoax. Devising a hoax to glorify a friend and mentor is one thing, but you do not find people dying for a hoax, at least not one from which they derive no benefit. Certainly if Christ had not risen his disciples would not have died horrible deaths affirming the reality and truth of the resurrection. The result of this line of reasoning is that we must conclude that Jesus inDouche rose from the dead. Consequently, his claims concerning himself—including his claim to be God—have credibility. He meant what he said and did what he said he would do. Steve, you thief, you stole what I said in another thread! :angry: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skuba steve Posted September 18, 2003 Share Posted September 18, 2003 haha... that was a good one hey dave-o Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted September 18, 2003 Share Posted September 18, 2003 I have the fullness of truth in the one who said he was the truth. Sorry, you do not have Fullness of Truth, unless you are in the Church built by Him. God Bless, ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skuba steve Posted September 18, 2003 Share Posted September 18, 2003 ummm.... i think i will just laugh at you HAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted September 18, 2003 Share Posted September 18, 2003 So just because you don't have an intelligent argument to make, you just laugh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted September 18, 2003 Share Posted September 18, 2003 ummm.... i think i will just laugh at you HAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAA So are you saying that someone can have the fullness of truth and be outside the Church built by Christ? How would they not fall under Acts 20:30 and 2 Peter 3:15-17? How can someone have the fullness of truth when they are outside the Church built by Christ? Isn't Christ all Truth? Only the Church established by Christ is guided in all truth... that is, if you believe the Scriptures. God Bless, ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin D Posted September 18, 2003 Share Posted September 18, 2003 ummm.... i think i will just laugh at you HAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAA Yes or No: Was your Church founded by Christ? Or someone who was a believer in Christ? Yes or No: Is Christ's church an invisible church which conflicts itself with different parts of teaching? Yes or No: Is Christ's invisible church one with so much division? Yes or No: Is there ONE truth to each important teaching and doctrine? Or is there more than one Truth? Yes or No: Is it God's will for Christians to be divided by denominations? Yes or No: Should there be ONE Church, which speaks the fullness of Truth, and is not divided up by opinions and different beliefs from within? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skuba steve Posted September 18, 2003 Share Posted September 18, 2003 my faith is primarily in Christ, not in his church.... Scripturaly, the church is made up of all those who place their face in the saving power of Christ... If we were to all place our faith in the church to find the truth... we would all be placing our faith in each other and Christ would be pushed out of the picture. Jesus is the Truth, not the Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin D Posted September 18, 2003 Share Posted September 18, 2003 (edited) my faith is primarily in Christ, not in his church.... Scripturaly, the church is made up of all those who place their face in the saving power of Christ... If we were to all place our faith in the church to find the truth... we would all be placing our faith in each other and Christ would be pushed out of the picture. Jesus is the Truth, not the Church. Please quote my previous post, and reply to each "Yes or No" question. You may add a small detailed response to each. Edited September 18, 2003 by Paladin D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted September 18, 2003 Share Posted September 18, 2003 my faith is primarily in Christ, not in his church.... Scripturaly, the church is made up of all those who place their face in the saving power of Christ... If we were to all place our faith in the church to find the truth... we would all be placing our faith in each other and Christ would be pushed out of the picture. Jesus is the Truth, not the Church. Steve, you don't seem to realize that Jesus Christ founded His Church, which is the CATHOLIC CHURCH. Jesus CANNOT be separated from His Church! At the time scripture was written, there was only one church -- the Catholic Church -- although it may not have gone by that name at the time. It doesn't say that the Church is compiled of all these different denominations. Heck, that wasn't even God's will! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted September 18, 2003 Share Posted September 18, 2003 my faith is primarily in Christ, not in his church.... Scripturaly, the church is made up of all those who place their face in the saving power of Christ... If we were to all place our faith in the church to find the truth... we would all be placing our faith in each other and Christ would be pushed out of the picture. Jesus is the Truth, not the Church. What does the Bible say that the Pillar and Foundation of Truth is? The Church has the power to forgive sins, given from Christ. Without the Church, we do not have the Eucharist. Without the Church we do not get baptized. Without the Church we would not know Christ. Our faith is IN Christ! BECAUSE THE Church SAYS TO PUT OUR Faith IN Christ! NO Catholic HAS EVER SAID THAT OUR FAITH IS IN THE CHURCH! WE KNOW THAT OUR CHURCH PREACHES 100% OF THE TRUTH BECAUSE Jesus SAID IT WOULD! John 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate 8 to be with you always, 17 the Spirit of truth, 9 which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it, because it remains with you, and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. Jesus SAID IT WOULD NEVER BE OVERCOME! St. Matt 16:18 "And so I say to you, you are Peter (Kephas), and upon this rock (Kephas) I will build my church, 13 and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it." 1 Tim 3:15 But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth. God Bless, ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin D Posted September 18, 2003 Share Posted September 18, 2003 Skuba, your answers *should* be the following... Yes or No: Was your Church founded by Christ? Or someone who was a believer in Christ? Someone who was a believer in Christ. Yes or No: Is Christ's church an invisible church which conflicts itself with different parts of teaching? No, it shouldn't be. Yes or No: Is Christ's invisible church one with so much division? No, it shouldn't be. Yes or No: Is there ONE truth to each important teaching and doctrine? Or is there more than one Truth? There should be one truth. Yes or No: Is it God's will for Christians to be divided by denominations? No, everyone should be united, not seperated by denominations. Yes or No: Should there be ONE Church, which speaks the fullness of Truth, and is not divided up by opinions and different beliefs from within? Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted September 18, 2003 Share Posted September 18, 2003 bump Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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