Why Does God Require Worship?

[Laudate_Dominum]

I hope you don't mind if I share what I was thinking as I read your last post.

[quote]Cure of Ars writes: But the problem is that your method is narcissistic

What wrong with self- love?[/quote]
Nothing is wrong with self-love as such. But love must be properly ordered to be true. Love is true when it is ordered toward the Truth. If self-love is primary it is not in harmony with the truth of man's metaphysical situation it becomes disordered. Disordered self-love can in fact lead to selfishness, isolation and alienation from others, the innability to love others properly and can alienate one from God.
The Bible teaches quite clearly that the love of God comes first. Self-love and love of neighbor are below love of God if you were to use a hierarchy, and are informed by this love and given a structure which conforms to the truth of reality.
And recall that God is Absolute Goodness and the source of all that is good and true and beautiful. To live a life rooted in a deep love relationship with the source of all Love, enabled one to love on a higher level (a high example being someone like Mother Teresa). This is the fulfillment of our being, to live not for ourselves, but to become love, as it were.

[quote]Cure of Ars writes: with very limited perspective and makes no real demands to submit to something higher.

Why would you want to submit to something higher?[/quote]
The truth of man's metaphysical situation, that I mentioned above, is that you did not create yourself. None of us are the source of our own being and to live as if you are is to live a lie basically. To "submit to something higher" is not a bad thing at all, it is truth. We are contingent, dependent creatures and to recognize this and live by it is the beginning of walking in truth. And it in no way demeans the human person or takes away from his dignity, rather it fulfills it because that "higher power" toward which we owe our very being, is in fact the source, cause, and sole fulfillment of that being. The only adequate response in the face of the reality of our metaphysical situation is humility and loving surrender. And God is in fact Love, so surrendering to God is surrendering to Love, perfect peace and joy and fulfillment for all eternity, which is the meaning of all the true and noble longings of the human heart.

[quote]Cure of Ars writes: It has little power to challenge because it is based on subjective experience with no checks or balances to something beyond oneself.

Why is it so difficult for anyone to believe that someone can recognize LOVE and consideration respect for oneself. GOD never said we needed to believe in GOD to live a good PURPOSEFUL and prosperous life. [/quote]
This reminded me of Augustine's criticisms of Aristotle's philosophy. Indeed there were many godless philosophies in the ancient world that claimed to have the recipe for human happiness and fulfillment. They general contain much truth, for example Aristotle expounded upon the virtues brilliantly and showed how only a virtuous life can bring man peace and happiness. But the problem Augustine points out is that no matter how good your life is here on earth, or how happy your are in a worldly sense, you will still meet with tragedies, illness, loss of loved ones, and ultimately your own death. Only a life which is ordered toward eternity can bring true, deep happiness and the peace which transcends this finite existence. So I would say you can live a purposeful and prosperous life to some extent, but the ultimate questions and the deeper purpose of life will be left bankrupt. God alone can give ultimate purpose, meaning and happiness.


God bless you.

[carrdero]

Some intersteing viewpoints on LOVE. Did you get a chance to see what I post about GOD’s feelings toward LOVE?

Why Does God Require Worship?Carrdero Posted: Aug 14 2004, 01:09 PM

Laudate_Dominum writes: But the problem Augustine points out is that no matter how good your life is here on earth, or how happy your are in a worldly sense, you will still meet with tragedies, illness, loss of loved ones, and ultimately your own death.

Why do you consider these to be tragedies?

Laudate_Dominum writes: To "submit to something higher" is not a bad thing at all, it is truth.

What truth does this lead to? What are the benefits to submitting to something higher?

Laudate_Dominum writes: And it in no way demeans the human person or takes away from his dignity, rather it fulfills it because that "higher power" toward which we owe our very being, is in fact the source, cause, and sole fulfillment of that being.

I know a few African-Americans who may disagree with you on this point.

Laudate_Dominum writes: And God is in fact Love, so surrendering to God is surrendering to Love, perfect peace and joy and fulfillment for all eternity, which is the meaning of all the true and noble longings of the human heart.

Do you believe that GOD loves us UNCONDITIONALLY?

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='carrdero' date='Aug 20 2004, 03:49 AM'] Some intersteing viewpoints on LOVE. Did you get a chance to see what I post about GOD’s feelings toward LOVE?

Why Does God Require Worship?Carrdero Posted: Aug 14 2004, 01:09 PM

Laudate_Dominum writes: But the problem Augustine points out is that no matter how good your life is here on earth, or how happy your are in a worldly sense, you will still meet with tragedies, illness, loss of loved ones, and ultimately your own death.

Why do you consider these to be tragedies?

Laudate_Dominum writes: To "submit to something higher" is not a bad thing at all, it is truth.

What truth does this lead to? What are the benefits to submitting to something higher?

Laudate_Dominum writes: And it in no way demeans the human person or takes away from his dignity, rather it fulfills it because that "higher power" toward which we owe our very being, is in fact the source, cause, and sole fulfillment of that being.

I know a few African-Americans who may disagree with you on this point.

Laudate_Dominum writes: And God is in fact Love, so surrendering to God is surrendering to Love, perfect peace and joy and fulfillment for all eternity, which is the meaning of all the true and noble longings of the human heart.

Do you believe that GOD loves us UNCONDITIONALLY? [/quote]
[quote]Some intersteing viewpoints on LOVE. Did you get a chance to see what I post about GOD’s feelings toward LOVE? [/quote]
I didn't see those posts.. I'll check it out later, I need to sleep very soon.

[quote]Laudate_Dominum writes: But the problem Augustine points out is that no matter how good your life is here on earth, or how happy your are in a worldly sense, you will still meet with tragedies, illness, loss of loved ones, and ultimately your own death.

Why do you consider these to be tragedies?[/quote]
Because they are losses, privations, evils. No one desires to loose their health, to suffer the pains of disease and illness, if they do there is obviously something seriously wrong there. Also when people we love die it is sad and painful and we don't want them to die. And the reality of death is the perrenial problem of life, we must all face our mortality, this is a source of fear and uncertainty for people. I do not think I have said anything that is really disputed. Are you suggesting that you do not consider these things to be tragic?

[quote]Laudate_Dominum writes: To "submit to something higher" is not a bad thing at all, it is truth.

What truth does this lead to? What are the benefits to submitting to something higher?[/quote]
I said to submit to something higher is not bad, it is truth. Not that it leads to truth (though it does because in this case I was talking specifically about submitting to God Who is Absolute Truth), but that this act of submission comes from accepting the truth of man's metaphysical situation, the fact that I did not create myself and therefore I am not the source of truth and meaning in the universe but that the ultimate reality transcends my own mind and existence.

[quote]Laudate_Dominum writes: And it in no way demeans the human person or takes away from his dignity, rather it fulfills it because that "higher power" toward which we owe our very being, is in fact the source, cause, and sole fulfillment of that being.

I know a few African-Americans who may disagree with you on this point.[/quote]
I know sure what you are talking about here. How might these African-Americans disagree? Why does it matter that they are African-Americans? I wonder if you correctly interpret the point I was making there.

[quote]Do you believe that GOD loves us UNCONDITIONALLY?[/quote]
Of course. But.. I suspect you are presupposing an inadequate concept of love. If the direction you are going with this question is that God loves us no matter what we do and therefore we don't really have any moral obligations, God created us to do whatever we want and there is nothing we can do that will make Him not love us. I remember reading these sort of thing in the Conversations with God book. It said you could fornicate or do whatever and that God was ok with it (actually the writer put these words into God's mouth).
First of all I believe that God loves us no matter what we do, no matter how much we sin. But, this does not mean that there are no consequences for sins. Even in the natural order our actions have consequences. Loving a person and not caring about how that person acts is not really loving them at all. If you love someone you desire what is best for them and want them to choose the good. Sometimes parents must be tough with their children for their own good because their actions choices are wrong. God loves you and I, and because God loves He is not indifferent to our actions. I would not believe my mother loved me if she did not care at all about my actions. "It's ok son, do whatever you feel like." When we sin it doesn't mean that God doesn't love us, we might feel unworthy of God's love and convince ourselves that God doesn't love us. Deep down I think we know when we are not loving up to the true dignity of who we are created to be. The negative effects of sin are signs that are meant to teach us and lead us to repentance and conversion of heart; toward the truth of who we are in the universe and of the ultimate meaning of our lives. Consider a couple, say the man repeatedly cheated on the woman but claimed to love her, and she claimed to love him, and suppose further that the woman was well aware of the man's infidelity but just accepted it in the name of love. This would not really be a loving relationship but an abusive relationship, and if the woman really desired the man's good (and her own good) she would vehemently oppose this destructive cycle of abuse. This breaking up would be painful and unpleasant, but hopefully the man would be changed for the better because of it. This scenario fits with the nature of love whereas the original scenario was a hollow conterfeit.
The universe has an objective structure and order, it is not consistent to try to make God out to be a God of arbitrariness, indifference and absurdity really. I won't say more because I'm not even sure if this is the direction you were going to take.

Peace be with you.

[Cure of Ars]

[quote]Trust Me there is nothing cool about writing a book. Especially about a entity that no one cares about. [/quote]


I think it’s cool many people only dream about doing this. As for no one caring, I sorry if this is how you see things but from a Catholic perspective what your doing is very dangerous. Not to say that your intentions are not good but what your basically saying is, “listen to me, not Christ” because as you admitted your perspective does not see Christ as God incarnate. From a Catholic view point to lead someone away from Christ is one of the worst things that you could possible do. Worse then even giving crack to elementary kids. This is because Christ is the physician for our soul. Without Christ you’re lost. He is the way the truth and the life. So if we are not as open to your book and your god, you should know that it is not because we are mean but because we do not want to participate in leading people away from the source of all goodness.

I remember that you said that you have a chapter on Christ in your book. I assume it views Christ more as a wise teacher more than as the word of God. But really this view is not reasonable. There are only three reasonable views of Chris and being only a wise man is not one of them. Jesus claimed to be God which is a huge claim. Now with this claim there are only three options:

1. Jesus is telling us the truth and he is God.
2. Jesus is lying and he is leading people away from God, which is a very evil act.
3. Jesus could have been insane and had illusions of grandeur, in which case he was nuts.

These are really the only reasonable options and they do not include a good wise man. I have not read your book so I do not know which one it picked.


I have a question for you. Is your book true because you believe it, or do you believe your book because it is true?

Edited August 21, 2004 by Cure of Ars

[carrdero]

Cure of Ars writes: I think it’s cool many people only dream about doing this.

It is a lot of work. As an author there are many things that have to be considered; writing and publishing and promoting. I K(NOW) a lot more about the business NOW then I did before but looking back at the experience, “cool” would not be my first word to describe the experience.

Cure of Ars writes: As for no one caring, I sorry if this is how you see things but from a Catholic perspective what your doing is very dangerous.

Danger is my middle name. Like I have mentioned to other Phatmass members and as history has shown in the past, people who believe that they have this kind of insight with GOD were persecuted for their beliefs. I do not want a safe relationship with GOD I want a REAL relationship with GOD. If danger is part of having a REAL relationship with GOD so BE it.

Cure of Ars writes: Not to say that your intentions are not good but what your basically saying is, “listen to me, not Christ” because as you admitted your perspective does not see Christ as God incarnate.

Actually GOD’s perspective did not admit to me that he was Christ incarnate or that he had ever incarnated to a physical existence. Maybe that will be my next book; An Interview With Jesus.
I don’t think the message of my book is “listen to me, not Christ” . The message of the book really is “Here is what I have discussed with GOD, take it or leave it”. Another prominent message of the book is that GOD is available and awaiting your questions for those people who do not agree with the beliefs that I have arrived at. There is even a section about HOW TO TALK WITH GOD for those people who wish to have their own personal REALationship with GOD to explore not only my findings but to understand their own beliefs.

Cure of Ars writes: I remember that you said that you have a chapter on Christ in your book. I assume it views Christ more as a wise teacher more than as the word of God.

Actually the chapter brings out even more relevant facets of Jesus’ existence on earth that are sometimes overlooked or ignored by people.

Cure of Ars writes: But really this view is not reasonable. There are only three reasonable views of Chris and being only a wise man is not one of them. Jesus claimed to be God which is a huge claim. Now with this claim there are only three options:

1. Jesus is telling us the truth and he is God.
2. Jesus is lying and he is leading people away from God, which is a very evil act.
3. Jesus could have been insane and had illusions of grandeur, in which case he was nuts.

If you are using the Bible as your source for these conclusions there are many scriptures in the Bible that clearly interpret Jesus and GOD as BEing two separate entities. There is also the fact that Jesus’ life was documented for the Bible 30 years after his death which leaves to much speculation and misinformation on what early Christians “would have you believe” about the life of Christ. 30 years is to long for me and another 2000 years of interpretation piled on top of that doesn’t really conclude an accurate description of Jesus’ life. I have concluded that the only entity who was around at the time of Jesus’ existence and REMEMBERS what Jesus the Christ’s life was like was GOD.

Cure of Ars writes: I have a question for you. Is your book true because you believe it, or do you believe your book because it is true?

Like I mentioned to other Phatmass members there are many points that GOD has expressed to me that make for better sense than many of the theories that I have been exposed to throughout my lifetime. Though I cannot PROVE everything in my book, there are some points (either through lack of human understanding or observance) that GOD and I do not see eye to eye on. In other words GOD can be CORRECT (and probably is) but I cannot/haven't realize(d) it yet.

[Laudate_Dominum]

what about my post?

[carrdero]

Laudate_Dominum writes: what about my post?

Sorry Laudate_Dominum I had forgotten that I did not respond to the rest of your post. I think that I have moved a section of your post and answered it in the HOW DOES GOD UNDERSTAND DEATH thread because I thought it would be more appropriate for that thread.

Laudate_Dominum writes: And it in no way demeans the human person or takes away from his dignity, rather it fulfills it because that "higher power" toward which we owe our very being, is in fact the source, cause, and sole fulfillment of that being.

carrdero writes: I know a few African-Americans who may disagree with you on this point.

Laudate_Dominum writes: I know sure what you are talking about here. How might these African-Americans disagree? Why does it matter that they are African-Americans? I wonder if you correctly interpret the point I was making there.

In the latter part of the 19th Century there were white southerners who had brought men and women over from Africa to submit to their “higher power”. These white Americans taught that these slaves should submit their lives, yes their very BEings, in fulfilling their cause for their masters. This as we K(NOW) was very demeaning to the Africans and took away not only their dignity but deaden their spirit as well. There are other examples in history where other “higher powers” thought they had the best intentions for their people but I guess the moral remains that we shouldn’t submit to higher powers and GOD certainly never did ask me to submit to him.

Laudate_Dominum writes: First of all I believe that God loves us no matter what we do, no matter how much we sin. But, this does not mean that there are no consequences for sins.

Yes, you can hold up a liquor store if you wanted to, but are you prepared to go to jail if you get caught? There are consequences for every action that you decide. Many people don’t figure in all the many possibilities before they say or do something. The reason that I do not hold up a liquor store is because I do not think that is considerate, it is disrespectful to the store owner and I do not want to go to jail. It is not because I am worried about my relationship with GOD or that GOD will not LOVE me or I am afraid GOD will punish me, in fact there are many people who are not considering the GOD factor before they commit a crime. There are many people who don’t consider any of the other consequences when they commit a crime. Some people feel they will never get caught.
What I am trying to say is that there are many good reasons not to commit “sins” in this physical existence then to start believing that those consequences will be observed and judged by a SUPREME BEING. Also the moral obligation should be recognize as our own, there is no understanding of actions and consequence if we continue to believe that GOD’s wrath is just hanging overhead. I believe that this is what GOD wants us to understand. That we can make the difference on this planet if we just consider the consequences of our actions.