Why Does God Require Worship?

[carrdero]

Apotheoun writes: Now, what I am asking from you, is that you give a rational proof that backs up your personal opinions about this "god" of yours. Is your "god" necessary being? Is your "god" the uncaused cause? Is your "god" the unmoved mover?

I can’t help shake the feeing that I just finished watching a Woody Allen film. I have a “jist” at what you are saying but I could use more clarification into actually what you are requesting. Apotheoun if you could take those questions above and give some laymen examples maybe I could offer some insight. I also may be able to offer reasonable examples of why I feel like that. Also please include your version of the beliefs that you have in GOD and how your reasoning above applies so that that I can make a comparison.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Aug 16 2004, 04:20 PM']Now, what I am asking from you, is that you give a rational proof that backs up your personal opinions about this "god" of yours. Is your "god" necessary being? Is your "god" the uncaused cause? Is your "god" the unmoved mover?[/quote]
[quote name='carrdero' date='Aug 17 2004, 07:27 AM']I can’t help shake the feeing that I just finished watching a Woody Allen film. I have a “jist” at what you are saying but I could use more clarification into actually what you are requesting. .[/quote]
Carrderro,

It's really quite simple. Show that there is a basis for your belief in this "god" in objective reality, and not simply within your own mind. If what you are saying about this "god" is purely personal and subjective, it follows that there can be no common ground between us and no real dialogue, because this "god" you talk about is basically a figment of your own imagination.

[quote name='carrdero' date='Aug 17 2004, 07:27 AM']Apotheoun if you could take those questions above and give some laymen examples maybe I could offer some insight. I also may be able to offer reasonable examples of why I feel like that. Also please include your version of the beliefs that you have in GOD and how your reasoning above applies so that that I can make a comparison.[/quote]
I will give other proofs in addition to the proof from contingency that I have already provided, but only when you respond to my original post asking for you to rationally prove your own assertions. At this point in our discussion we are focused on your beliefs, on your assertions, on your "god," and not on what I believe. Address my post, and give your rational proofs, and then our conversation can move forward.

[carrdero]

Apotheoun writes: It's really quite simple. Show that there is a basis for your belief in this "god" in objective reality, and not simply within your own mind. If what you are saying about this "god" is purely personal and subjective, it follows that there can be no common ground between us and no real dialogue, because this "god" you talk about is basically a figment of your own imagination.

Well I think the book I have written is a good start in objective reality. Actually, that is really all I got. How did I do?

[Theoketos]

Is it possible that your personal experience might not be based on Reality? I am sure that most every moment of our lives is seen with some sort of personal bias.

What then is reality? God is.

He is prefect, we are not, you are not, and I am not.

My knowledge will never be prefect, until I am in full and final communion with God, who is truth.

How then do we know what is true on Earth?

Faith seeking understanding, guided by the Holy Spirit who comes by the most powerful and best means of the intercession of His spouse, the Blessed Virgin Mary, who was and is sinless, and represents the church sinless, which speaks through the vicar of Christ, the Holy Father, in communion with the whole church, militant, suffering, and triumphant.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='carrdero' date='Aug 18 2004, 07:18 AM'] Apotheoun writes: It's really quite simple. Show that there is a basis for your belief in this "god" in objective reality, and not simply within your own mind. If what you are saying about this "god" is purely personal and subjective, it follows that there can be no common ground between us and no real dialogue, because this "god" you talk about is basically a figment of your own imagination.

Well I think the book I have written is a good start in objective reality. Actually, that is really all I got. How did I do? [/quote]
The book you've written is proof of nothing, and to refer to it begs the question, since the point at issue between us is the reality of the existence of this "god" you claim to talk to; and, as I've already indicated, so far you haven't proved that this "god" is anything but a figment of your own imagination. So, prove, through a rational argument, without any reference to the socalled dialogues that you've had with this imaginary being, that this "god" of yours really exists outside of your own mind, or desist from making claims that you cannot support.

If the book you've written is all that you've got; it follows, that there is no reason whatsoever to give any credence to what you've said about this "god," or about God in general.

[carrdero]

Apotheoun writes: The book you've written is proof of nothing, and to refer to it begs the question, since the point at issue between us is the reality of the existence of this "god" you claim to talk to; and, as I've already indicated, so far you haven't proved that this "god" is anything but a figment of your own imagination. So, prove, through a rational argument, without any reference to the socalled dialogues that you've had with this imaginary being, that this "god" of yours really exists outside of your own mind, or desist from making claims that you cannot support.
If the book you've written is all that you've got; it follows, that there is no reason whatsoever to give any credence to what you've said about this "god," or about God in general.

Not necessarily. If the book were entitled HELLO IT’s ME: An Interveiw With ME there is still a lot of pertinent information to ponder and profound insights to consider that stand to reason against anyone’s belief system. I also wouldn’t be the first person to write a book like that. In fact if I am not mistaken you are studying material from others who have had a different perspective on life (you may CORRECT me if I am wrong).
The fact that the book was written by GOD and me is not as impressive to me as the actual dialogue contain therein. It really made sense to me. The selling point to me is not that GOD spoke to me but that everyone can achieve a relationship like this with GOD. It has never been about PROVING or DISPROVING the information in the book rather than going to GOD yourself and receiving the answers to your own questions. So after K(NOW)ing this what exactly is the concern that you have with the book? Or me? Or me and the book?

Also I must point out to you that it is now your turn to respond to the same question. Here I will get you started.

Apotheoun,
It's really quite simple. Show that there is a basis for your belief in this "god" in objective reality, and not simply within your own mind. If what you are saying about this "god" is purely personal and subjective this "god" you talk about is basically a figment of your own imagination.
Now, what I am asking from you, is that you give a rational proof that backs up your personal opinions about this "god" of yours. Is your "god" necessary being? Is your "god" the uncaused cause? Is your "god" the unmoved mover? Etc.

Also please keep your answers in simple and clear form. There are actually easier ways to explain anything you have to say. As I explained to Jeff, I do not speak "intellectualese" and I can't very well respond to your post if I can't understand it.

Edited August 19, 2004 by carrdero

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='carrdero' date='Aug 19 2004, 10:29 AM'] Apotheoun,
It's really quite simple. Show that there is a basis for your belief in this "god" in objective reality, and not simply within your own mind. If what you are saying about this "god" is purely personal and subjective this "god" you talk about is basically a figment of your own imagination.
[/quote]
Once again, I'm not Apotheoun, but he seems to be getting all the fun questions so I'm butting in.

A few years ago God kicked my butt, then I believed in Him and strove to change my life and all that. There was never a question of me conjuring some psychological coping mechanism or of projecting some personification of my issues with my father because God saw me first, and I felt it.

And I wouldn't have renounced all the wicked little attachments I so loved if I was just daydreaming and trying to make myself feel good. My imaginary God would be cool with getting drunk and rustling up loose women. (not that I was ever into that per se, but you get the point)

[carrdero]

Laudate_Dominum writes: Once again, I'm not Apotheoun, but he seems to be getting all the fun questions so I'm butting in.

Your opinion/experience/belief is welcomed at anytime with me.

Laudate_Dominum writes: A few years ago God kicked my butt, then I believed in Him and strove to change my life and all that.

Though I have never K(NOW)N GOD to be a “kicker of the behind” I do realize that there are some people who come to realize GOD in their own way. GOD is not really concerned about how people come to him as much as I believe he is just happy that they are there.

Laudate_Dominum writes: There was never a question of me conjuring some psychological coping mechanism or of projecting some personification of my issues with my father because God saw me first, and I felt it.

There was really never any personal tragedy or revelation that brought me to GOD just a wondering curiosity. I have been through many religions that claim to K(NOW) GOD but their beliefs/faith/doctrines/dogma never made sense so all I did was relieve the middle man and get the answers straight from the source. When I arrived to GOD I didn’t really have any issues or projections. I just had questions and I found GOD very patient and understanding in answering them all for me.

Laudate_Dominum writes: And I wouldn't have renounced all the wicked little attachments I so loved if I was just daydreaming and trying to make myself feel good. My imaginary God would be cool with getting drunk and rustling up loose women. (not that I was ever into that per se, but you get the point)

Though there were some unproductive habits that I have discontinued using in my life I came to the conclusion that it was me who was doing this to myself and that GOD or Satan were not the reasons for the circumstances I found myself in.

[Cure of Ars]

I have problems with you methodology. Writing a book is cool and it is great to have a personal relationship with God. In fact it is essential. But the problem is that your method is narcissistic with very limited perspective and makes no real demands to submit to something higher. It has little power to challenge because it is based on subjective experience with no checks or balances to something beyond oneself. Personally, I know with myself that it is easier to lie to myself then it is to fool someone else. We all have defense mechanisms that lead us to fool ourselves about reality. I am a social worker and I have found this to be true for all people. I see it on a daily basis. So let me suggest a broader perspective.


[b]Wisdom Tradition[/b]

As a Catholic, I do not rely only on my personal experience. My experiences are very limited to all the experiences that people have had through out time. As a Catholic I am a part of a wisdom tradition that spans over 4000 years. It has had some of the greats minds ponder the truths that God has revealed. It has had some of the greatest mystics the world has ever known seek union with God. It has had the greatest saints that the world has ever known lay down their lives for the most powerless parts of humanity. And all this is based on the truth that God has revealed through his only son. This one man was only a poor carpenter but he has had the most impact on the world then any other man. No other wisdom tradition can hold a candle to what Christ has done through his bride the Church.

[b]Submit, Repent, turn to Christ[/b]

I am not the measure of truth. It is foolishness to try to make truth fit to what I think is right. Instead we are called to submit and conform to reality. And without doing this we play God and God can not change us. By submiting to Christ, with his grace, I hope to truly be able to say, “I have been crucified with Christ; yet I live, no longer I, but Christ lives in me” (Gal 2:19-20)

Edited August 19, 2004 by Cure of Ars

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='carrdero' date='Aug 19 2004, 11:09 AM'] Laudate_Dominum writes: Once again, I'm not Apotheoun, but he seems to be getting all the fun questions so I'm butting in.

Your opinion/experience/belief is welcomed at anytime with me.

Laudate_Dominum writes: A few years ago God kicked my butt, then I believed in Him and strove to change my life and all that.

Though I have never K(NOW)N GOD to be a “kicker of the behind” I do realize that there are some people who come to realize GOD in their own way. GOD is not really concerned about how people come to him as much as I believe he is just happy that they are there.

Laudate_Dominum writes: There was never a question of me conjuring some psychological coping mechanism or of projecting some personification of my issues with my father because God saw me first, and I felt it.

There was really never any personal tragedy or revelation that brought me to GOD just a wondering curiosity. I have been through many religions that claim to K(NOW) GOD but their beliefs/faith/doctrines/dogma never made sense so all I did was relieve the middle man and get the answers straight from the source. When I arrived to GOD I didn’t really have any issues or projections. I just had questions and I found GOD very patient and understanding in answering them all for me.

Laudate_Dominum writes: And I wouldn't have renounced all the wicked little attachments I so loved if I was just daydreaming and trying to make myself feel good. My imaginary God would be cool with getting drunk and rustling up loose women. (not that I was ever into that per se, but you get the point)

Though there were some unproductive habits that I have discontinued using in my life I came to the conclusion that it was me who was doing this to myself and that GOD or Satan were not the reasons for the circumstances I found myself in. [/quote]
Thank you for welcoming my opinions and things.

I looked at that webpage that you gave a link to. You seem pretty cool in my opinion. I hardly know anything about you, but you seem like a unique person (a quality I appreciate). I respect that you are so serious and dedicated to your belief in God.

I've actually not read most of the debates you've been participating in (mainly with Apotheoun) so I don't really know what's going on. But it occurred to me after reading a little part that most of us who have a relationship with God still have a distorted image of God. Its the same in relationships with people, we may know and even love a person, but we still often project, idealize and other such things. I'm not saying its not important what people believe about God, I wish everyone in the world would embrace the fullness of the Faith and know Christ and Our Lady and everything. But I know that when people are open to God He leads them on the paths that are best for them, and if they are docile and everything, they will come to green pastures. I don't really know what you believe about God, do you believe that Jesus is God Incarnate? Just curious.

Anyway, its good having a new and unique voice on phatmass. I look forward to future discussions.

God bless.

[carrdero]

Laudate_Dominum writes: But I know that when people are open to God He leads them on the paths that are best for them, and if they are docile and everything, they will come to green pastures.

Probably the most important discussion I had with GOD was the whole "why am I here/what is my PURPOSE in life" discussion. This is an answer that I never had explained for me satisfactorily from any other person or organization. GOD has assured me that I am a unique person and that I do have my own PURPOSE in this physical existence and that has been a comforting victory to my existence.

Laudate_Dominum writes: I don't really know what you believe about God, do you believe that Jesus is God Incarnate? Just curious.

From what I understand GOD has told me that he never incarnated to a physical existence on earth and that Jesus and GOD are indeed two separate entities. Though I did learn some new and exciting things about Jesus in the JESUS THE CHRIST chapter.

Laudate_Dominum writes: Anyway, its good having a new and unique voice on phatmass. I look forward to future discussions.

That has got to be the most sincerest and warmest welcome I have received.

Edited August 19, 2004 by carrdero

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='carrdero' date='Aug 19 2004, 11:55 AM'] Probably the most important discussion I had with GOD was the whole "why am I here/what is my PURPOSE in life" discussion. This is an answer that I never had explained for me satisfactorily from any other person or organization. GOD has assured me that I am a unique person and that I do have my own PURPOSE in this physical existence and that has been a comforting victory to my existence.
[/quote]
That is a profound discussion to have. I have had that discussion with God in prayer several times over the years. I'm kind of dense so I need to be reminded from time to time.

[quote]From what I understand GOD has told me that he never incarnated to a physical existence on earth and that Jesus and GOD are indeed two separate entities. Though I did learn some new and exciting things about Jesus in the JESUS THE CHRIST chapter.[/quote]
You have made me curious to know what things you learned about Jesus in the JESUS THE CHRIST chapter.. hmm..
As I'm sure you know I believe that Jesus Christ is, in his very person, the definitive revelation of God. I would actually recommend reading the Bible (if you don't already), particularly the Gospels. If I was receiving insights about Christ (especially if I felt there was supernatural activity involved) I would feel obliged to follow up with some discernment. "Test the spirits" as the Scripture says. I imagine if these teachings about Christ you have received are from God, they will be consistent with the Holy Gospels. Just my advice (not that you asked for it, sorry).

[quote]That has got to be the most sincerest and warmest welcome I have received.[/quote]

Peace be with you.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='carrdero' date='Aug 19 2004, 08:29 AM']Apotheoun writes: The book you've written is proof of nothing, and to refer to it begs the question, since the point at issue between us is the reality of the existence of this "god" you claim to talk to; and, as I've already indicated, so far you haven't proved that this "god" is anything but a figment of your own imagination. So, prove, through a rational argument, without any reference to the socalled dialogues that you've had with this imaginary being, that this "god" of yours really exists outside of your own mind, or desist from making claims that you cannot support.
If the book you've written is all that you've got; it follows, that there is no reason whatsoever to give any credence to what you've said about this "god," or about God in general.

Not necessarily. If the book were entitled HELLO IT’s ME: An Interveiw With ME there is still a lot of pertinent information to ponder and profound insights to consider that stand to reason against anyone’s belief system. I also wouldn’t be the first person to write a book like that. In fact if I am not mistaken you are studying material from others who have had a different perspective on life (you may CORRECT me if I am wrong).
The fact that the book was written by GOD and me is not as impressive to me as the actual dialogue contain therein. It really made sense to me. The selling point to me is not that GOD spoke to me but that everyone can achieve a relationship like this with GOD. It has never been about PROVING or DISPROVING the information in the book rather than going to GOD yourself and receiving the answers to your own questions. So after K(NOW)ing this what exactly is the concern that you have with the book? Or me? Or me and the book?

Also I must point out to you that it is now your turn to respond to the same question. Here I will get you started.

Apotheoun,
It's really quite simple. Show that there is a basis for your belief in this "god" in objective reality, and not simply within your own mind. If what you are saying about this "god" is purely personal and subjective this "god" you talk about is basically a figment of your own imagination.
  Now, what I am asking from you, is that you give a rational proof that backs up your personal opinions about this "god" of yours. Is your "god" necessary being? Is your "god" the uncaused cause? Is your "god" the unmoved mover? Etc.

Also please keep your answers in simple and clear form. There are actually easier ways to explain anything you have to say. As I explained to Jeff, I do not speak "intellectualese" and I can't very well respond to your post if I can't understand it.[/quote]
No, I don't have to respond to you yet, because you still haven't really responded to anything I've asked. You've given no reasons for what you assert, and simply reiterate that this "god" you supposedly talk to has told you these things, and after hearing the same answer from you in post after post, it has become apparent that you are trapped in a form of relativism, and that there is no objective basis for what you say about your "god" or the true God, who revealed Himself in Jesus Christ. In a strange sense, when you said that you didn't write a book called, [u]HELLO IT’S ME: An Interveiw With ME[/u], you actually gave what should have been the title of your book, because based on your answers to various moral questions, I don't believe you've talked to one true God; instead, I think you've carried on a rather schizophrenic conversation with yourself. Moreover, I've come to the conclusion that you will not respond to my questions, either because you are incapable of formulating a response, or because you really don't have one (other than constantly advertising your book); and so, I will bow out of this thread and allow Laudate_Dominum to carry on a conversation with you.

God bless,
Todd

[carrdero]

Cure of Ars writes: I have problems with you methodology.

What are your problems?

Cure of Ars writes: Writing a book is cool

Trust Me there is nothing cool about writing a book. Especially about a entity that no one cares about.

Cure of Ars writes: and it is great to have a personal relationship with God.

It’s the best!!

Cure of Ars writes: In fact it is essential.

Like food and water.

Cure of Ars writes: But the problem is that your method is narcissistic

What wrong with self- love?

Cure of Ars writes: with very limited perspective and makes no real demands to submit to something higher.

Why would you want to submit to something higher?

Cure of Ars writes: It has little power to challenge because it is based on subjective experience with no checks or balances to something beyond oneself.

Why is it so difficult for anyone to believe that someone can recognize LOVE and consideration respect for oneself. GOD never said we needed to believe in GOD to live a good PURPOSEFUL and prosperous life.

Cure of Ars writes:Personally, I know with myself that it is easier to lie to myself then it is to fool someone else.

Personally I know with myself that it is easier to BE honest with myself and with others.

[carrdero]

Apotheoun writes: No, I don't have to respond to you yet, because you still haven't really responded to anything I've asked. You've given no reasons for what you assert, and simply reiterate that this "god" you supposedly talk to has told you these things, and after hearing the same answer from you in post after post, it has become apparent that you are trapped in a form of relativism, and that there is no objective basis for what you say about your "god" or the true God, who revealed Himself in Jesus Christ. In a strange sense, when you said that you didn't write a book called, HELLO IT’S ME: An Interveiw With ME, you actually gave what should have been the title of your book, because based on your answers to various moral questions, I don't believe you've talked to one true God; instead, I think you've carried on a rather schizophrenic conversation with yourself. Moreover, I've come to the conclusion that you will not respond to my questions, either because you are incapable of formulating a response, or because you really don't have one (other than constantly advertising your book); and so, I will bow out of this thread and allow Laudate_Dominum to carry on a conversation with you.

ok