MorphRC Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 i see no problem with tats. unless the church says it wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noel's angel Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 i agree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelFilo Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 (edited) I am, as I said, not very open to repeat myself because of time constraints, so again I will give you the same answers that I have kept constant (except those that Lil Red pointed out, for which I am still thankful for her questioning, so that I may question, and so I can see Truth more visably) [quote]I won't answer whether or not Jesus or Our Lady would have gotten a tattoo. Firstly, times were different. Secondly, I would never claim to know the thoughts of Our Lord. Are you making this claim? [/quote] Times were different, values and morals stay the same. The arguement doesn't hold up. If times changed and everyone went around and worshipping satan, it doesn't justify worshipping satan. If everyone started crossdressing, it doesn't justify crossdressing. It's good you don't claim to know what Jesus and Mary think. I sure don't either. However, we must live by their example, doing everything for the glory of God. Tattoos don't glorify His image, and self mutilation doesn't glorify the free will we received from Him. Since you asked the question, however, I'd like to mention, that adoration will often make you know what they intend, or want. I would suggest staying in adoration for 5+ hours in one sitting, no food, no drink. It is even better if you haven't eaten anything all day. It's a complete giving of self. Then, things will be clearer, you'll see the sin and the error in this. While I can't claim to know what they think or do, I do claim that they lead us closer to the Truth, and the Truth has no time for mutilation, desecration of the holy temple that is the human body, and the vainity that is a tattoo. [quote]It is your opinion that it is irreverant, disrespectful, and unbecoming...but that's all...just your opinion. Sorry to tell you, but I don't live by your rules...I live by the Church's. You are very much entitled to your opinion but it's not fair to claim that what is your opinion is in fact a sin when there is nothing to back that claim. [/quote] It is his and my opinion, and so it should be treated as such. However, the Church doesn't have opinoins, the Church has teachings. Just because the Church doesn't teach it's wrong doesn't mean it can't be concluded it's wrong (refer to my Holy Spirit having a human body comment, to see what I mean). [quote]The Church condemns self-mutilation, so IF tattoing was considered self-mutilation, then that would be condemned as well. Obviosuly, unless it is extreme, the Church does not connect tattooing and self-mutilation. If it had, then it would be condemned, but it's not. So the self-mutilation argument doesn't hold.[/quote] Again, the Church in her wisdom, hoping for salvation of all, will not define it ex Cathedra, nor will She speak about it officially, unless it becomes a problem that is so large, talking about it will not create a larger problem then if nothing is left unsaid. There are many native tribes who hold tattooing as a cultural aspect. The Church will not storm around, destorying cultures and converting people, this isn't the way of the Church. Instead, she instills the teachings, and slowly those sinful customs no longer become part of the culture. If the Church did say tattooing is wrong, it would have to say it across the board, and then many souls would be lost. We have to conclude from what She teaches, to realize it's wrong. Again, we don't have to hear things ex cathedra to know it's wrong. Please refer to my Holy Spirit statement. [quote] As for how it can benefit one's faith, that is personal and up to that individual. A religious tattoo may be a constant reminder of how we are to live...the same as someone who wears a cross. I have a friend who has a religious tattoo on his arm. He hides it with sleeves, so it is not visible to anyone. He told me that the tattoo is one of his greatest tools in fighting off sin...when he is tempted by sin, he looks at his arm, is reminded of the great sacrifice Our Lord made and his temptations are greatly abated. Are you going to tell him that that is wrong? [/quote] Things that can benefit your faith are not personal. Adoration benefits your faith. Sleeping around doesn't. There is nothing personal about this. A tattoo is a mark on the body to be glorified in heaven. Again, please answer how we can improve on the very image of God. Please realize, you can better a perfect image. For your friend, yes. The tattoo was wrong. A cross could do the same thing without marking the image of God that he received, and mutilating it by allowing a needle to wreck it. Just because evil makes for good ends, doesn't justify the means. Ie if an abortion makes a lady become more religious, once she realizes her mistake, that doesn't justify the abortion. [quote]It's not your business why someone receives a tattoo. It is about the intention and what is in that person's heart. Only God truly knows what is in our hearts. Why don't you let Him be the judge?[/quote] God has given us rules to live by. He is the only judge indeed. However, he is our Father, and he wants us to follow his rules so that when he acts as our Judge, he may find little to no sin on us. I am not judging anyone by the way. Intention doesn't justify an action either. Becoming a prostitute to save up money so your son can eat food will not justify the prostitution. Intent matters, but don't fall into the simple mistake that it matters when we are doing things that are wrong. Again,a certain thing you haven't answered/addressed. How can we improve on God's image? God bless, Mikey Edited August 13, 2004 by MichaelFilo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelFilo Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 [quote name='MorphRC' date='Aug 13 2004, 11:57 AM'] i see no problem with tats. unless the church says it wrong. [/quote] I've addressed this already, but here goes. I don't see whats wrong with believing the Holy Spirit has a human form. I also see no problem in thinking that God is really the man down the street. The Church doesn't teach that God can't take different forms, and it doesn't teach that he has no desire to. We know this isn't true however. The Church doesn't have to tell you what is wrong for it to be wrong. The Church never publicly denounced Sola Scriptura prior to it's existance. Everyone knew it was wrong. The Church didn't have to explicitly say something for it to be understood as good or bad, why now? God bless, Mikey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelFilo Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 (edited) Again Christina, I am still hoping you make the right decision. If you want, I'll be going to adoration this Saturday, and so I can ask for God's guidance to help you, however I only get one hour. It's too bad really, but I can go ask in the hour. I just hope that you make the decision that is in good standing with the Church, the ressuruction of the dead, the will of our Eternal Father, his Son Jesus, the love that is the Holy Spirit, our Holy Mother Mary, and the saints, not the desires of our own wills. God bless, Mikey Edited August 13, 2004 by MichaelFilo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amarkich Posted August 14, 2004 Share Posted August 14, 2004 bump, is there any [i]valid [/i]argument against his points?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelFilo Posted August 14, 2004 Share Posted August 14, 2004 Heh, maybe if Jeff/Apotheun took a look at it. However, I am sure with it's popularity, they have already, and chosen not to respond. It is too bad, if any valid points could be made and defended, they would know them. Still praying that you choose to not let in to your desires. I hope the idea goes away as fast as it came to you. God bless, Mikey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amarkich Posted August 14, 2004 Share Posted August 14, 2004 I will pray also. I think it is sad that Catholics (in any age) are less reverent toward their bodies than the pagans or heathens of old! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelFilo Posted August 14, 2004 Share Posted August 14, 2004 I'm really in a debate type mood actually. However, I think that no one will try. However, if anyone still disagrees, it'd be nice to know why. In hopes that all decisions about tattoos are made with the mind set that our bodies are holy temples. God bless, Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carrie Posted August 15, 2004 Share Posted August 15, 2004 I still disagree, but I've made my points already. I don't think your argument disproves any of my points but that is your opinion. Frankly, I'm tired of going in circles and nothing I say is satisfactory to you. Maybe someone with better apologetic skills than I have can respond to you. And I'm sorry you feel that I'm not reverant towards my body. Again, that is how you feel, not how I feel. You're not convincing me and I'm not convincing you. For now, let's agree to disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelFilo Posted August 15, 2004 Share Posted August 15, 2004 I cannot stress enough how much I care to not agree to disagree. All your points are addressed. I gave you a response to all of them. We are not beating a circular path, instead you are running into a brick wall, as do all of those who oppose the will of the Church. PLEASE listen, since you don't like any of my points, then please tell me, would Jesus get a tattoo? Would it glorify God? Would Mary gete a tattoo? Would that glorify God? Your excuse that we don't know what they think or their will isn't a response. We know what Jesus wanted, and so we have Church and the Bible to tell us. We know what Mary wanted, and she wanted what Jesus wanted. I guess I'll have to use some protestant thinking here when I ask What would Jesus do? Please keep in mind, it's not how you or I see it, but how God sees it. I sometimes didn't like having to do stuff that God wanted, but only when we submit our own views as useless, do we gain His views, and will for us. So please, lets not argue what you want, after all, we all want sainthood, right? God bless, Mikey Postscriptum Anyone willing to debate the other points, feel free to jump on in. I will be praying for you tommorow at mass to not fulfill your own desires and fulfill the will of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christina Posted August 15, 2004 Author Share Posted August 15, 2004 [quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Aug 12 2004, 05:57 PM'] Christina, we would like to know what your final decision is, only because I'd hate to go pray at Church that you would take some solid advice over an urge to do something, and the whole time I'd be praying for the impossible, to undo your decision. God bless, Mikey [/quote] Well, as it stands right now I haven't decided, but will let you all know. Thanks for your prayers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carrie Posted August 15, 2004 Share Posted August 15, 2004 I take great offense at your implication that I oppose the will of the Church. You don't know me well enough to make such an implication. I live my life based on the Church and I am a very faithful and obedient Catholic. The Church does not condemn tattoos and therefore, I am not opposing the will of the Church. I'm done with this conversation. Peace, Carrie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelFilo Posted August 15, 2004 Share Posted August 15, 2004 While my intent isn't to offend you, you are supporting something that is against what the Church teaches (even if not outright, but then again, I explained why). You made no spiritual consideration on this, but gave logical reasoning (that I refuted) and we would all agree that getting a tattoo isn't something Jesus would do, and he is the perfect example of what we should be like, isn't he? God bless, Mikey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted August 15, 2004 Share Posted August 15, 2004 The Church has not issued a papal bull on the subject of tattoos. Somehow I really don't think it will, so lets have a little charity, shall we? You don't like tattoos fine, but not pretend you speak for the Catholic Church, because you don't. Your opinons are your own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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