Episcopalian Errors 39 Points

[ironmonk]

This article is a point by point reply to the attack on the Catholic Faith found at:
[url="http://www.episcopalian.org/efac/39articles/39art.htm"]http://www.episcopalian.org/efac/39articles/39art.htm[/url]

I do say attack because there are certain terms (i.e. supererogation) that are distinct attacks on the Catholic Faith. If they had the truth, why would they have to attack the Catholic Faith? They themselves are offshots of the Catholic Faith, how then can they not be counted with those who "from your own group (Disciples of Christ) men will come forward perverting the truth" - Acts 20:29-30.

Many of the points made are taken from Catholic Doctrine.


[b]2 Timoty 3:14[/b]
But you, [u][b]remain faithful to what you have learned[/b][/u] and believed, [u][b]because you know from whom you learned it[/b][/u],

Since they changed some of it, how did they remain faithful to what they learned from whom they learned it?





[b]Points 1-14[/b]:

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[quote]PART I: The Substance of the Faith (Articles 1-5)

1. Faith in the Holy Trinity
There is only one living and true God, who is eternal and without body, indivisible and invulnerable. He is of infinite power, wisdom, and goodness. He is the maker and preserver of all things both visible and invisible. Within the unity of the Godhead there are three persons who are of one substance, power, and eternity -- the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. There is only one living and true God. His existence is everlasting, without beginning or end. He is a spiritual being, not limited by a body. He is free from bodily desires and impulses His power, wisdom, and goodness, are infinite. Of this one true God there are three persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. These three persons are identical in substance, power and eternal existence. [/quote]

This is Catholic Doctrine established before the New Testament.

[b]Trinity[/b]
[url="http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/t.htm"]http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/t.htm[/url]
as the central mystery of the faith, 232, 234, 237, 261
divine economy as the common work of the three divine persons, 257-60
family as image of the Trinitarian communion, 2205
Filioque, 246-48, 264
God one and three, 202
"hypostasis" or person, 252
liturgy as the work of, 1077-1109
notion of substance, 252
prayer as communion with, 2655
presence of Trinity in man, 260
"theology" and "economy," 236
unity of the Trinity and the unity of the Church, 813
See also Christ; the Father; God; Holy Spirit

divine persons in the Trinity, 252
consubstantial, 242, 253
distinct from one another, 254, 267
in unity, 255, 689

expression of the Trinity
articulating the dogma, 251
in Baptism, 233, 265
in the liturgy, 249, 1066

Revelation of God as Trinity
the Father, 238, 240
the Holy Spirit, 243-48
the Son, 240, 242
of the Trinity, 244, 684, 732



[quote]2. The Word, or Son of God, who became truly man
The Son, who is the Word of the Father, was begotten from eternity of the Father, and is the true and eternal God, of one substance with the Father. He took man's nature in the womb of the blessed virgin Mary, of her substance, in such as way that two whole and perfect natures, the Godhead and manhood, were joined together in one person, never to be divided. Of these two natures, is the one Christ, true God and true man. He truly suffered, was crucified, died, and was buried, to reconcile the Father to us (restore a right relationship between the Father and us) and to be a sacrifice, not only for original guilt but also for all actual sins of men. [/quote]


See Christ at [url="http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/c.htm"]http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/c.htm[/url]


[quote]3. The descent of Christ into the realm of the dead
Just as Christ died for us and buried, so also it is to be believed that he descended into the realm of the dead. [/quote]

See Christ at [url="http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/c.htm"]http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/c.htm[/url]


[quote]4. The resurrection of Christ
Christ truly rose again from death and took again his body, with flesh, bones, and all that belongs to the completeness of man's nature. In this body he ascended into heaven, where he is now seated until the last day, when he will return to judge all men. [/quote]


See Christ at [url="http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/c.htm"]http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/c.htm[/url]



[quote]5. The Holy Spirit
The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. He is of one substance, majesty, and glory with the Father and the Son, true and eternal God. [/quote]


See "Holy Spirit" at [url="http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/h.htm"]http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/h.htm[/url]


[quote]PART II: The Rule of Faith (Articles 6-8)

6. The Sufficiency of Scripture for salvation
Holy Scripture contains all things necessary for salvation. Consequently whatever is not read in Scripture nor can be proved from Scripture cannot be demanded from any person to believe it as an article of the faith. Nor is any such thing to be thought necessary or required for salvation. By holy scripture is meant those canonical books of the Old and New Testaments whose authority has never been doubted within the church. Listing of 66 canonical books of the Old and New Testaments. [/quote]


This statement is not only grossly wrong, but is contradicted by Scripture. Nothing in scripture even comes close to what this claims.


[b]John 14:16[/b]
[color=red]And I will ask the Father, and [b][u]he will give you another Advocate to be with you always,[/u] [/b][/color]
[b]17 [/b][color=red][u][b]the Spirit of truth[/b][/u], which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it, because it remains with you, and will be in you. [/color]
[b]18 [/b][color=red]I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. [/color]
...
[b]26 [/b][color=red]The Advocate, the holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name--[u][b]he will teach you everything and remind you of all that (I) told you[/b][/u]. [/color]


Jesus promised that the Church would be guided by the Holy Spirit, in Truth. The Church cannot be wrong about faith and morals, because Jesus said so.

This cannot apply to any protestant church because to be guided in Truth is to have full truth, if the protestant churches were guided in truth they would all be of One Faith and agree on everything... they all disagree and contradict each other on many things... therefore they cannot be the One Faith (Eph 4:5) established by Christ... they all preach a different Gospel.



[b]1 Tim 3:15[/b]
But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, [b]which is the church of the living God[/b], the [u][b]pillar and foundation of truth[/b][/u].


The Church is the Pillar and Foundation of truth. To be the Pillar and Foundation of Truth, then the Church must have the authority to teach the Word of God, to teach it infallibly. Infallibly because it is guided by God.



[b]St Matt 18:17[/b] (Jesus said) [color=red]If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector. [/color]


[b]St. Matt 28:18[/b] [color=red]Then Jesus approached and said to them, "All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.[/color]
[b]19 [/b][color=red]Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, [/color]
[b]20 [/b][color=red]teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age[/color]."



Which Church has been making diciples of all nations since the Apostles for 2000 years? Which Church could possibly have Jesus Himself guiding the Church? ....answer to both.... The Catholic Church


[b]2 Timoty 3:14[/b]
But you, remain faithful to what you have learned and believed, because you know from whom you learned it,

[b]2 Thess 2:15[/b]
Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.

[b]2 Tim 2:2 [/b]
And what you heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will have the ability to teach others as well.

These faithful people...who could they be??? Which Church has been around since the Time of Christ & His Apostles? .... The Catholic Church, fulfilling the commands of Jesus.

[b]Romans 10:17 [/b]
Thus faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the word of Christ.

[b]Ephesians 3:5 [/b]
which was not made known to human beings in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit,

[b]Ephesians 2:20[/b]
built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the capstone.

[b]1 Corin 11:2[/b]
I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold fast to the traditions, just as I handed them on to you.

[b]Acts 8:27 [/b]
So he got up and set out. Now there was an Ethiopian eunuch, a court official of the Candace, 8 that is, the queen of the Ethiopians, in charge of her entire treasury, who had come to Jerusalem to worship,
[b]28 [/b]and was returning home. Seated in his chariot, he was reading the prophet Isaiah.
[b]29 [/b]The Spirit said to Philip, "Go and join up with that chariot."
[b]30 [/b] Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and said, "[i][u]Do you understand what you are reading?[/u][/i]"
[b]31 [/b]He replied, "[b]How can I, unless someone instructs me?[/b]" So he invited Philip to get in and sit with him.

The Catholic Church is a gift from Christ sent to instruct us. Christ promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church (Matt. 16:18) and the New Testament itself declares the Church to be "the pillar and foundation of the truth" (1 Tim. 3:15).


As far as how many books are in the bible, the kjv and other protestant bibles have taken books out. The Catholic Church uses the Septuagint for it's Old Testament. The Septuagint dates back to about 293 BC. It was the OT that every Christian used until 1611 AD. What right did King James have to take books out? None. The kjv and other protestant bibles use the Massorah for their Old Testament. The Massorah came from the Jews in 90 AD, 57 years after Jesus took their authority away and gave it to the New Church. Jesus used the Septuagint, The Apostles used the Septuagint... I will stick to what Christ's Church wanted us to use; The Septuagint.


[quote]7. The Old Testament
The Old Testament is not contrary to the New, for in both the Old and New Testaments eternal life is offered to mankind through Christ. Hence he, being both God and man, is the only mediator between God and man. Those who pretend that the Patriarchs only looked for transitory promises must not be listened to. Although the law given by God through Moses is not binding on Christians as far as its forms of worship and ritual are concerned and the civil regulations are not binding on any nation state, nevertheless no Christian is free to disobey those commandments which may be classified as moral. [/quote]


The Catholic Church teaches that Christ is the only mediator between God and man.
The Catholic Church teaches that God keeps his promises.


[quote]8. Of the Three Creeds
The Nicene Creed, and that which is commonly called the Apostles' Creed, ought thoroughly to be received and believed: for they may be proved by most certain warrants of Holy Scripture. (Changed in American BCP) The three creeds, the Nicene Creed, Athanasian Creed, and that known as the Apostles' Creed, ought to be wholeheartedly accepted and believed. This is because their contents may be proved by definite statements of holy Scripture. [/quote]


They say to believe the Apostles' Creed, but they deny the Apostles Creed in other points. As easily seen below it is a Catholic prayer.

[b]I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.[/b] (Gen. 1:1)
[b]I believe in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord.[/b] (Mt 16:16, Jn 1:14, 3:16; 18; 1Jn 4:9, Acts 10:36; Rom 10:12 )
[b]He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary[/b]. (Is 7:14; Mt 1:18-25; Lk 1:27; 34 , Is 9:6; Mt 1:23; Lk 1:32; 35; 43; 2:11; Gal 4:4, Is 7:14; Mic 5:2-3)
[b]He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. [/b](Ps 22:69; Wis 2:10-20; Is 1:5-6; 53; Jer 11:19; Lam 1:12; Zech 1:12-13; (Cf ) Lk 24:46, Is 53:4-10; Mt 20:28; Lk 24:46; Jn 12:24; Rom 5; Eph 5:2; 1Pet 1:18; 2:24 1Jn 2:2; 1Thess 5:10 )
[b]He descended to the dead. [/b](1 Pet 3:19)
[b]On the third day He rose again.[/b] (Ps 16:10; (Cf ) Acts 13:35, Mt 17:23; 20:19; Mk 9:9; 14:28; Lk 9:22; 18:33; Jn 2:19; 10:18, Mt 28:9; Mk 16:9; Lk 24:13-35; Jn 20:26; 21:1; Acts 1:3; 1Cor 15:6 )
[b]He ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of God, the Father Almighty.[/b] (Mk 16:19; Lk 24:50; Jn 20:17; Acts 1:3-9; Eph 4:10; 1Tim 3:16; 1Pet 3:22)
[b]From thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. [/b](Jn 5:22; Acts 10:42; 17:31; 2Tim 4:1; 1Pet 4:5; Rev 20:12-13, Acts 10:42; Rom 2:16;2Tim 4:1; 1Pet 4:5 )
[b]I believe in the Holy Spirit, [/b](Jn 14:16; 26; 15:26; 16:7, Jn 15:26. 1Jn 5:7 , Jn 15:26; 16:7; 16:13, Mt 3:11-16. Lk 3:16. Jn 1:33. Acts 1:5; 2:38; 11:16 , Acts 1:8; 8:15; 10:44; 19:6, Jn 14:17. Acts 2:33. Rom 5:5. 1Cor 3:16; 6:19 Gal 3:14. Eph 1:13. 2Tim 1:14, Jn 14:26; 16:13; Acts 5:32; 9:31; 1Cor 2:10; Eph 3:5, Acts 4:8; 6:10; 7:55, Acts 3:21; 2Tim 3:16; Pet 1:21)
[u][b]the holy catholic Church,[/b][/u] (Tobit 13:11-18; Is 2:2-3; Bar 5:3; Hos 2:14-24; Mic 4:1-3, 1Tim 3:15 , Mt 16:18; 28:19; Mk 16:15; 1Cor 3:11; Eph 2:20; 1Pet 2:4-6 , Rom 12:4; 1Cor 12:12; Eph 1:22-23; 5:22; Col 1:18, Eph 1:22; 5:23; Col 1:18 , Mt 16:18; 28:20 , Mt 5:14; Mk 4:30-32; Eph 2:19-22 , Mt 16:18-19; 18:18; Jn 20:23 , 1Cor 1:2; Col 3:12 , Ps 118:22; Mt 21:42; Mk 12:10; Lk 20:17; Acts 4:11; Eph 2:20; 1Pet 2:4; 7 ,1Cor 3:10; Eph 2:20; Rev 21:14 Acts 1:15-26; 2 Tim 2:2; Tit 1:5 )
[b]the communion of saints, [/b](Tobit 12:12-13, Psalm 103:20-21, 141:2, 148:1-2, Isaiah 6:6-7, Baruch 3:4, Zech 1:12-13, 2 Macc. 15:12-16, 2 Chron. 32:33, Jn 15:5; Rom 12:4; 1Cor 6:12-20; 10:17; 12:4-27; Eph 2:19; 5:30; Col 1:18; 24; 2:19; 3:15, Jer 15:1; Acts 12:5; Rom 15:30; 2Cor 13:7; Eph 6:18; Col 4:3 1Thess 5:25; 2Thess 3:1; Heb 13:18; Jas 5:16 , Tobit 12:12; 2Mac 15:14; Rev 5:8; 8:4 , Heb 12:1, 1Thess 3:13; Heb 11:40; 12:23; 1Pet 3:19; Rev 6:9, Acts 5:15; 19:11-12 , Eph 1:4-6; 12; 14 )
[b]the forgiveness of sins,[/b] (Mk 2:7; Lk 5:21, Mt 9:6; Mk 2:10; Lk 5:24; Col 3:13, Jn 20:22-23, 2Cor 2:10 , 5:18, Rom 5:11; Col 1:20; Heb 1:3 , 2 Cor 2:5-8 , Mt 18:18 )
[b]the resurrection of the body,[/b] (Rom 6:5; 1Cor 15:49; 2Cor 4:14; Phil 3:21)
[b]and the life everlasting.[/b] (Rom 6:8; 10:10; 2Cor 4:13-14; Eph 1:19; Col 2:12; 1Thess 4:14; 2Tim 1:10; 1Pet 1:5 , Rom 6:5; 8; 8:17; 2Tim 2:11)
[b]Amen. [/b]




[quote]PART III The Life of Faith (Articles 9-18)

Personal Religion
A. Its Commencement (Articles 9-14)
9. Original or Birth-sin
Original sin is not found merely in the following of Adam's example (as the Pelagians foolishly say). It is rather to be seen in the fault and corruption which is found in the nature of every person who is naturally descended from Adam. The consequence of this is that man is far gone from his original state of righteousness. In his own nature he is predisposed to evil, the sinful nature in man always desiring to behave in a manner contrary to the Spirit. In every person born into this world there is fund this predisposition which rightly deserves God's anger and condemnation. This infection within man's nature persists even within those who are regenerate. This desire of the sinful nature, which in Greek is called fronema sarkos and is variously translated the wisdom or sensuality or affection or desire of the sinful nature, is not under control of God's law. Although there is no condemnation for those that believe and are baptized, nevertheless the apostle states that any such desire is sinful. [/quote]

This is partially true. The teaching of Original Sin is again, a Catholic one... but....

People who believe and are baptized can still be condemned for sinning, just as the Catholic Church teaches and it states in the bible.

As Jeremiah expressed it, "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately corrupt; who can understand it?" (Jer. 17:9). There is also the possibility of falling from grace through mortal sin, and even of falling away from the faith entirely, for as Jesus told us, there are those who "believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away" (Luke 8:13). It is in the light of these warnings and admonitions that we must understand Scripture’s positive statements concerning our ability to know and have confidence in our salvation. Assurance we may have; infallible certitude we may not.

Consider this warning Paul gave: "See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off" (Rom. 11:22; see also Heb. 10:26–29, 2 Pet. 2:20–21).


[quote]10. Free Will
The condition of man since the fall of Adam is such that he cannot turn and prepare himself by his own natural strength and good works for faith and for calling upon the name of the Lord. Hence we have no power to do good works which are pleasing and acceptable to God, unless the grace of God through Christ goes before us so that we may have a good will, and continues to work with us after we are given that good will. [/quote]

Catholic teaching.

1730
God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. "God willed that man should be ‘left in the hand of his own counsel,' so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him."26
Man is rational and therefore like God; he is created with free will and is master over his acts.27

GS 17; Sir 15:14.
St. Irenaeus, Adv. haeres. 4, 4, 3: PG 7/1, 983.
1993
Justification establishes cooperation between God's grace and man's freedom. On man's part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:


When God touches man's heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God's grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God's sight.42

42. Council of Trent (1547): DS 1525.

[quote]11. The justification of man
We are accounted righteous before God solely on account of the merit of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ through faith and not on account of our own good works or of what we deserve. Consequently the teaching that we are justified by faith alone is a most wholesome and comforting doctrine. This is taught more fully in the homily on Justification. [/quote]

Justified by faith alone is false.

[url="http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect1chpt3art2.htm"]http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect1chpt3art2.htm[/url]

I. Justification
1987

The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us "the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ" and through Baptism:34

But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. For we know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. The death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves as dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.35



James 2:24 - the phrase "faith alone" (the Greek "pisteos monon") only occurs once in the Bible. "Man is justified by works and NOT faith alone." Unlike what many Protestant churches teach, no where in Scripture does it say that man is justified or saved by "faith alone."


Heb. 11:6 - faith is the minimum requirement without which we cannot please God. But this is just the beginning of justification.

Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38, 3:19, 17:30 - moreover, the faith we need is a repentant faith, not just an intellectual faith that believes in God.

Eph. 2:8 - this verse refers to this initial justification by faith. But justification is an ongoing process which, as we later see, includes our good works. Moreover, works outside of sanctifying grace do not justify us. Works in sanctifying grace do justify us.

Eph. 6:8 - whatever good anyone does will receive the same again from the Lord. God rewards good works done in grace.




[quote]12. Good works
Although good works, which are the fruits of faith and follow on after justification, can never atone for our sins or face the strict justice of God's judgment, they are nevertheless pleasing and acceptable to God in Christ and necessarily spring from a true and living faith. Thus a living faith is as plainly known by its good works as a tree is known by its fruit. [/quote]

1446
Christ instituted the sacrament of Penance for all sinful members of his Church: above all for those who, since Baptism, have fallen into grave sin, and have thus lost their baptismal grace and wounded ecclesial communion. It is to them that the sacrament of Penance offers a new possibility to convert and to recover the grace of justification. The Fathers of the Church present this sacrament as "the second plank [of salvation] after the shipwreck which is the loss of grace."47

2008
The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man's free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man's merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.


2016
The children of our holy mother the Church rightly hope for the grace of final perseverance and the recompense of God their Father for the good works accomplished with his grace in communion with Jesus.70 Keeping the same rule of life, believers share the "blessed hope" of those whom the divine mercy gathers into the "holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."71




[quote]13. Works before justification
Works done before receiving the grace of Christ and the inspiration of his Spirit are not pleasing to God. This is because they do not spring out of faith in Jesus Christ. Nor do they make people fit to receive grace or (as the schoolmen say) to deserve grace of congruity. On the contrary, because they are not done as God has willed and commanded that they should be done, it is undoubtedly the case that they have the nature of sin. [/quote]

Works are part of Justification. See Above reply.

[b]Romans 2:12 [/b]
All who sin outside the law will also perish without reference to it, and all who sin under the law will be judged in accordance with it.
[b]13 [/b]For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified.
[b]14 [/b]For when the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature observe the prescriptions of the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law.
[b]15 [/b]They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, 6 while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them
[b]16 [/b]on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge people's hidden works through Christ Jesus.



[quote]14. Works of supererogation
The concept of voluntary works besides, over and above God's commandments, which are sometimes called works of supererogation, cannot be taught without arrogance and impiety. By them men do declare not only that they render to God their proper duty but that they actually do more than their duty. But Christ says: 'So you also, when you after done everything you were told to do, should say, "We are unprofitable servants." [/quote]


Supererogation : To do more than is required, ordered, or expected.
Fr. Auman writes:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

By definition “rogation” is something that is asked for, required or demanded. Therefore “supererogation” is something that is over and above what is asked for, required or demanded. A soldier, for instance, is sometimes cited for having done something “over and above the call of duty”.

In religion the term “works of supererogation” is used to refer to those morally good works which are not required by morality or the law of God. Although not required by God’s law and therefore not sinful if neglected, works of supererogation are very helpful in the development of the spiritual life and in putting one on the road to spiritual perfection. For instance many works of charity, like the corporal works of mercy, are very beneficial to the spiritual life of the one who performs them for a supernatural motive. We are not required, for example, to visit all the sick people we know; but those that we visit for the love of God (and not just for the natural human love one has for the sick) are spiritual works of supererogation. (Works done out of sheer philanthropy are naturally good and deserve a natural reward, which is not always given; but the same works done for some supernatural reason deserve a supernatural reword, which is always given.)

Indeed, we can, and should, fill our day with many little works of supererogation simply by doing them for a supernatural motive while we are in the state of sanctifying grace. With prayers, Fr. Auman
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People don't have to give up children, but if they do, they will receive a hundred fold in Heaven (St. Matt. 19:29). Giving up children is going above and beyond what is required. It is Supererogation.

[Pio Nono]

JMJ
8/6 - The Transfiguration of Our Lord

A song, to the tune of [i]The Church's One Foundation[/i], written by a Ruthenian priest friend of mine about the Anglican communion.

"Our church has no foundation,
And fat old Henry's dead!
If you're looking for doctrine,
look to Rome instead.
We're high, we're low, we're 'tween,
yes, even in-between!
And if you want faithfulness
it's ne'er to be seen."

Thought you'd enjoy that one.

[MorphRC]

[quote]
I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth. (Gen. 1:1)
I believe in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord. (Mt 16:16, Jn 1:14, 3:16; 18; 1Jn 4:9, Acts 10:36; Rom 10:12 )
He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. (Is 7:14; Mt 1:18-25; Lk 1:27; 34 , Is 9:6; Mt 1:23; Lk 1:32; 35; 43; 2:11; Gal 4:4, Is 7:14; Mic 5:2-3)
He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. (Ps 22:69; Wis 2:10-20; Is 1:5-6; 53; Jer 11:19; Lam 1:12; Zech 1:12-13; (Cf ) Lk 24:46, Is 53:4-10; Mt 20:28; Lk 24:46; Jn 12:24; Rom 5; Eph 5:2; 1Pet 1:18; 2:24 1Jn 2:2; 1Thess 5:10 )
He descended to the dead. (1 Pet 3:19)
On the third day He rose again. (Ps 16:10; (Cf ) Acts 13:35, Mt 17:23; 20:19; Mk 9:9; 14:28; Lk 9:22; 18:33; Jn 2:19; 10:18, Mt 28:9; Mk 16:9; Lk 24:13-35; Jn 20:26; 21:1; Acts 1:3; 1Cor 15:6 )
He ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of God, the Father Almighty. (Mk 16:19; Lk 24:50; Jn 20:17; Acts 1:3-9; Eph 4:10; 1Tim 3:16; 1Pet 3:22)
From thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. (Jn 5:22; Acts 10:42; 17:31; 2Tim 4:1; 1Pet 4:5; Rev 20:12-13, Acts 10:42; Rom 2:16;2Tim 4:1; 1Pet 4:5 )
I believe in the Holy Spirit, (Jn 14:16; 26; 15:26; 16:7, Jn 15:26. 1Jn 5:7 , Jn 15:26; 16:7; 16:13, Mt 3:11-16. Lk 3:16. Jn 1:33. Acts 1:5; 2:38; 11:16 , Acts 1:8; 8:15; 10:44; 19:6, Jn 14:17. Acts 2:33. Rom 5:5. 1Cor 3:16; 6:19 Gal 3:14. Eph 1:13. 2Tim 1:14, Jn 14:26; 16:13; Acts 5:32; 9:31; 1Cor 2:10; Eph 3:5, Acts 4:8; 6:10; 7:55, Acts 3:21; 2Tim 3:16; Pet 1:21)
the holy catholic Church, (Tobit 13:11-18; Is 2:2-3; Bar 5:3; Hos 2:14-24; Mic 4:1-3, 1Tim 3:15 , Mt 16:18; 28:19; Mk 16:15; 1Cor 3:11; Eph 2:20; 1Pet 2:4-6 , Rom 12:4; 1Cor 12:12; Eph 1:22-23; 5:22; Col 1:18, Eph 1:22; 5:23; Col 1:18 , Mt 16:18; 28:20 , Mt 5:14; Mk 4:30-32; Eph 2:19-22 , Mt 16:18-19; 18:18; Jn 20:23 , 1Cor 1:2; Col 3:12 , Ps 118:22; Mt 21:42; Mk 12:10; Lk 20:17; Acts 4:11; Eph 2:20; 1Pet 2:4; 7 ,1Cor 3:10; Eph 2:20; Rev 21:14 Acts 1:15-26; 2 Tim 2:2; Tit 1:5 )
the communion of saints, (Tobit 12:12-13, Psalm 103:20-21, 141:2, 148:1-2, Isaiah 6:6-7, Baruch 3:4, Zech 1:12-13, 2 Macc. 15:12-16, 2 Chron. 32:33, Jn 15:5; Rom 12:4; 1Cor 6:12-20; 10:17; 12:4-27; Eph 2:19; 5:30; Col 1:18; 24; 2:19; 3:15, Jer 15:1; Acts 12:5; Rom 15:30; 2Cor 13:7; Eph 6:18; Col 4:3 1Thess 5:25; 2Thess 3:1; Heb 13:18; Jas 5:16 , Tobit 12:12; 2Mac 15:14; Rev 5:8; 8:4 , Heb 12:1, 1Thess 3:13; Heb 11:40; 12:23; 1Pet 3:19; Rev 6:9, Acts 5:15; 19:11-12 , Eph 1:4-6; 12; 14 )
the forgiveness of sins, (Mk 2:7; Lk 5:21, Mt 9:6; Mk 2:10; Lk 5:24; Col 3:13, Jn 20:22-23, 2Cor 2:10 , 5:18, Rom 5:11; Col 1:20; Heb 1:3 , 2 Cor 2:5-8 , Mt 18:18 )
the resurrection of the body, (Rom 6:5; 1Cor 15:49; 2Cor 4:14; Phil 3:21)
and the life everlasting. (Rom 6:8; 10:10; 2Cor 4:13-14; Eph 1:19; Col 2:12; 1Thess 4:14; 2Tim 1:10; 1Pet 1:5 , Rom 6:5; 8; 8:17; 2Tim 2:11)
Amen.
[/quote]

My Favourite part of that article. And Im saving it to Thanks Bro

[RandomProddy]

Another version:

We believe in (Romans 10: 8-10; 1 John 4: 15)
ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6: 4, Ephesians 4: 6)
Father (Matthew 6: 9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6: 3)
Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1: 1)
and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1: 15-16)

And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11: 17)
Son of God, (Mathew 14: 33; 16: 16)
Only-Begotten, (John 1: 18; 3: 16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1: 2)
Light from Light; (Psalm 27: 1; John 8: 12; Matthew 17: 2,5)
True God from True God; (John 17: 1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1: 18)
of one essence with the Father (John 10: 30)
through whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1: 1-2)
Who for us men and for our salvation (1 Timothy 2: 4-5)
came down from heaven, (John 6: 33,35)
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary (Luke 1: 35)
and became man. (John 1: 14)
And He was crucified for us (Mark 15: 25; 1 Corinthians 15: 3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 19: 6)
suffered, (Mark 8: 31)
and was buried. (Luke 23: 53; 1 Corinthians 15: 4)
And on the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures, (Luke 24: 1 1 Corinthians 15: 4)
and ascended into heaven, (Luke 24: 51; Acts 1: 10)
and sits at the right hand of the Father; (Mark 16: 19; Acts 7: 55)
and He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24: 27)
to judge the living and the dead; (Acts 10: 42; 2 Timothy 4: 1)
Whose Kingdom shall have no end. (2 Peter 1: 11)

And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14: 26)
Lord, (Acts 5: 3-4)
Giver of Life, (Genesis 1: 2)
Who proceeds from the Father [and the Son]; (John 15: 26)
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; (Matthew 3: 16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets. (1 Samuel 19: 20; Ezekiel 11: 5,13)

In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
holy, (1 Peter 2: 5,9)
catholic*, (Mark 16: 15)
and apostolic Church. (Acts 2: 42; Ephesians 2: 19-22)

I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. (Ephesians 4: 5)
I look for the resurrection of the dead, (John 11: 24; 1 Corinthians 15: 12-49; Hebrews 6: 2; Revelation 20: 5)
and the life in the age to come. (Mark 10: 29-30)

AMEN. (Psalm 106: 48)

[PedroX]

Random,

I like you, and admire your integrity.

peace...

[jmjtina]

[quote name='Pio Nono' date='Aug 6 2004, 10:48 AM'] JMJ
8/6 - The Transfiguration of Our Lord

A song, to the tune of [i]The Church's One Foundation[/i], written by a Ruthenian priest friend of mine about the Anglican communion.

"Our church has no foundation,
And fat old Henry's dead!
If you're looking for doctrine,
look to Rome instead.
We're high, we're low, we're 'tween,
yes, even in-between!
And if you want faithfulness
it's ne'er to be seen."

Thought you'd enjoy that one. [/quote]
:pc:

that was awesome.

[RandomProddy]

It's not that you have issue with other churches that worries me Ironmonk, it's this attitude:

[quote name='ironmonk']
This article is a point by point reply to the attack on the Catholic Faith found at:

I do say attack because there are certain terms (i.e. supererogation) that are distinct attacks on the Catholic Faith.[/quote]

You simply assume that any church or group that differs from the one you hold faith in must not only be wrong, but "attacking" yours. You are making lambs out to be wolves, you are creating a scapegoat where there should be love. Come on mate..

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Aug 6 2004, 04:31 AM'] It was the OT that every Christian used until 1611 AD. What right did King James have to take books out? None. [/quote]
The first edition of the KJV (1611 version) used the Septugiant. Some books were removed later.

Edited August 7, 2004 by RandomProddy

[MorphRC]

Yes the KJV upto 1633 had all the inspired books.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='RandomProddy' date='Aug 7 2004, 02:06 AM'] It's not that you have issue with other churches that worries me Ironmonk, it's this attitude:


The first edition of the KJV (1611 version) used the Septugiant. Some books were removed later. [/quote]
I'm sorry, but you are in error.

The Episcopalian 39 points are a direct attack on the Catholic Church. Study a little history on it... study the Catholic faith... and you will see the attack. They must attack the Catholic Church because that is the only way that they can justify their actions.

Luther - his 95 thesis was a direct attack on the Church.

Most protestant churches beginings were by attacking the Catholic Church - hence the name... protest-ant.

The first edition of the kjv used the Messorah. The Septuagint is Greek from 293 BC. The kjv used the Hebrew Messorah from 90 AD, translated and edited by the Jews, after Christ took the authority away from the Jews and gave the Authority to the New Church.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Pio Nono' date='Aug 6 2004, 10:48 AM']
"Our church has no foundation,
And fat old Henry's dead!
If you're looking for doctrine,
look to Rome instead.
We're high, we're low, we're 'tween,
yes, even in-between!
And if you want faithfulness
it's ne'er to be seen."

[/quote]
Oh, great, next time they sing "The Church's One Foundation" at Mass I'll probably have this in my head instead!

[MorphRC]

TO me a Protestant Christian sounds like an oxymoron.

[ICTHUS]

Ironmonk, if you'd done your homework, you'd know that the Westminster Confession of Faith and the Thirty-nine Articles are not synonymous.

The Thirty-nine Articles are the doctrinal statement of the Anglican Communion, whereas the WCF is the doctrinal confession of faith of the English Reformed Churches (i.e. Presbyterians)

[RandomProddy]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Aug 8 2004, 10:15 PM'] Ironmonk, if you'd done your homework, you'd know that the Westminster Confession of Faith and the Thirty-nine Articles are not synonymous.

The Thirty-nine Articles are the doctrinal statement of the Anglican Communion.. [/quote]
Actually the 39 Articles used to be the doctrinal statement of the Church of England, hence the "Rome shall have no legal power in England (this was so the Pope didn't come over, build a 40,000 foot statue of Mary in london and whip us all into submission. Despite that, the Spanish Armada was still sent....)" bit does not apply to the ECUSA branch as it was never part of the US government, wheras the C of E is still part of the government here.

the 39 articles were never binding on the laity and aren't binding at all on the clergy today. Likewise, it's never been binding on the entire communion as there is no anglican pope, the archbishop is [i]primus inter pares[/i].

[ironmonk]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Aug 8 2004, 05:15 PM'] Ironmonk, if you'd done your homework, you'd know that the Westminster Confession of Faith and the Thirty-nine Articles are not synonymous.

The Thirty-nine Articles are the doctrinal statement of the Anglican Communion, whereas the WCF is the doctrinal confession of faith of the English Reformed Churches (i.e. Presbyterians) [/quote]
You sent me the link, the first time that you asked me to rebut it when I emailed you. If you want, I can post the email here to refresh your memory.

You leave the faith for something you don't even know?

Where is the logic in that?

You need help bro.

I do my homework... I have no need to study what came about over 1500 years after Christ left us with His Church. I am sorry that I didn't double check what you stated about a group that left the Church established by Christ. I was wrong in assuming that when you called it westminster confession and the 39 points and then sent me the link... that is what you were talking about. Because of point 13 I believe it was, I don't remember, it was back in May, but I'll sift through my emails later.



God Bless,
ironmonk

Edited August 8, 2004 by ironmonk

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Aug 8 2004, 05:49 PM'] You leave the faith for something you don't even know? [/quote]
What???

I can see why John got fed up with you, Max. All you do is ridicule.