Self Defence

[Tora-Musume]

I was just thinking. Since it is a sin to commit murder or harm to others, what happens if you or another entity are in a situation where you are being harmed by another (and this is where the defend yourself comes from) and you defend yourself and you cause harm to that person, what then? Don't get me wrong. I know it's a sin. But would you just stand there and let another entity harm you or allow another entity harm others?

Here is another example: Your neighboor is beeing beaten by their partner. Do you just listen and do nothing? Yeah, you can call the police, but the longer you wait, the worse your neighboor is. Do you intrude and defend your neighboor? That would be causing a sin, right?

Another example for those females and men can respond too: You are doing your morning walk. A man grabs you and takes you into the woods. He holds a weapon to you. You defend yourself and mistakenly grab this weapon and the 6th commandment has been broken.

What my question is, what do you do in situations that will have you commit sins to protect yourself? Are these considered sins if you defend yourself?


Gotta Love me!

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

A priest on EWTN talked about this very issue yesterday. He mainly talked from the Catechism:
[quote][u][b]The Catechism of the Catholic Church[/b][/u]

Legitimate defense

2263 The legitimate defense of persons and societies is not an exception to the prohibition against the murder of the innocent that constitutes intentional killing. "The act of self-defense can have a double effect: the preservation of one's own life; and the killing of the aggressor. . . . The one is intended, the other is not."65

2264 Love toward oneself remains a fundamental principle of morality. Therefore it is legitimate to insist on respect for one's own right to life. Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow:


If a man in self-defense uses more than necessary violence, it will be unlawful: whereas if he repels force with moderation, his defense will be lawful. . . . Nor is it necessary for salvation that a man omit the act of moderate self-defense to avoid killing the other man, since one is bound to take more care of one's own life than of another's.66
2265 Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility.

2266 The efforts of the state to curb the spread of behavior harmful to people's rights and to the basic rules of civil society correspond to the requirement of safeguarding the common good. Legitimate public authority has the right and duty to inflict punishment proportionate to the gravity of the offense. Punishment has the primary aim of redressing the disorder introduced by the offense. When it is willingly accepted by the guilty party, it assumes the value of expiation. Punishment then, in addition to defending public order and protecting people's safety, has a medicinal purpose: as far as possible, it must contribute to the correction of the guilty party.67

2267 Assuming that the guilty party's identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.

If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people's safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.

Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity "are very rare, if not practically nonexistent."68

[u]Footnotes:[/u]
65 St. Thomas Aquinas, STh II-II,64,7, corp. art.
66 St. Thomas Aquinas, STh II-II,64,7, corp. art.
67 Cf. Lk 23:40-43.
68 John Paul II, Evangelium vitae 56. 69 Cf. Gen 4:10.[/quote]

[MichaelFilo]

[quote name='Tora-Musume' date='Aug 5 2004, 10:06 PM'] I was just thinking. Since it is a sin to commit murder or harm to others, what happens if you or another entity are in a situation where you are being harmed by another (and this is where the defend yourself comes from) and you defend yourself and you cause harm to that person, what then? Don't get me wrong. I know it's a sin. But would you just stand there and let another entity harm you or allow another entity harm others?

Here is another example: Your neighboor is beeing beaten by their partner. Do you just listen and do nothing? Yeah, you can call the police, but the longer you wait, the worse your neighboor is. Do you intrude and defend your neighboor? That would be causing a sin, right?

Another example for those females and men can respond too: You are doing your morning walk. A man grabs you and takes you into the woods. He holds a weapon to you. You defend yourself and mistakenly grab this weapon and the 6th commandment has been broken.

What my question is, what do you do in situations that will have you commit sins to protect yourself? Are these considered sins if you defend yourself?


Gotta Love me! [/quote]
Long post, short answer.

Defending yourself is not wrong. Doing more damage then necessary to defend yourself is. Accidently doing that damage in an attempt to defend yourself is not wrong. Just as a pharmacist may accidently give someone the wrong drug and they die. The intent was not there, nor the will, and therefore they did not commit a mortal sin ( however, carelessness/going to a serious job while inable to work at maximum capacity are putting other peoples lives in danger, and therefore it is a mortal sin ). My point is. Do what you must, do no more to defend yourself. If you do anything on accident without will or intent, and at no fault of your own does it happen, you will not be held responsible by God(Government is a whole other story).

God bless,

Mikey

[MorphRC]

Christ said. It is a good thing for a someone to die for his friend. Some scripture verse, somewhere.

[Aloysius]

"Greater love than this no man hath, that a man lay down his life for his friends. "
[i]The Holy Gospel According to St. John, Chapter 15 Verse 13[/i]

Although Jesus did say:
"And to him that striketh thee on the one cheek, offer also the other. And him that taketh away from thee thy cloak, forbid not to take thy coat also. "
[i]The Holy Gospel According to St. Luke, Chapter 6 Verse 39[/i]

But you also find the example of the Good Theif who admits that their life is justly taken by the Romans
" And we indeed justly: for we receive the due reward of our deeds."
[i]The Holy Gospel According to St. Luke, Chapter 23 Verse 41[/i]

And let's not forget that Jesus condoned the ownership of a deadly weapon
"and he that hath not, let him sell his coat and buy a sword. "
[i]The Holy Gospel According to St. Luke, Chapter 22 Verse 36[/i]

But also said:
"Put up again thy sword into its place: for all that take the sword shall perish with the sword. "
[i]The Holy Gospel According to St. Matthew, Chapter 26 Verse 52[/i]

So in conclusion: if someone punches you in the face, don't punch back, don't live to fight but in an extreme case you can fight to live.

[MorphRC]

Ty Aloysius

[carrdero]

Edited August 6, 2004 by carrdero

[MorphRC]

??

[Ash Wednesday]

We have a right to defend ourselves, even if that leads to the [b]unintentional[/b] killing of the offender.

If some bloke is trying to abduct me, I would have no qualms about sin when I elbow him in the face. I just wouldn't want to waste time doing more than what I'd have to do. I'd be quick about it and then run.

Trying to unnecessarily beat someone to a pulp and kill them in retaliatory self-defense is not only sinful, it's stupid. Why waste time tiring yourself over that, when you could be fleeing to safety rather than hanging around to see if your attacker or anyone else still has plans for you?

Defend yourself as simply and quickly as possible and get the heck out of there. The most morally licit way is also the most practical. Ain't the faith great?

[White Knight]

[quote name='Tora-Musume' date='Aug 5 2004, 09:06 PM'] I was just thinking. Since it is a sin to commit murder or harm to others, what happens if you or another entity are in a situation where you are being harmed by another (and this is where the defend yourself comes from) and you defend yourself and you cause harm to that person,  what then? Don't get me wrong. I know it's a sin. But would you just stand there and let another entity harm you or allow another entity harm others?

Here is another example: Your neighboor is beeing beaten by their partner. Do you just listen and do nothing? Yeah, you can call the police, but the longer you wait, the worse your neighboor is. Do you intrude and defend your neighboor? That would be causing a sin, right?

Another example for those females and men can respond too: You are doing your morning walk. A man grabs you and takes you into the woods. He holds a weapon to you. You defend yourself and mistakenly grab this weapon and the 6th commandment has been broken.

What my question is, what do you do in situations that will have you commit sins to protect yourself? Are these considered sins if you defend yourself?


Gotta Love me!  [/quote]

Lol dude, why would God, make it a sin to defend one self in battle? rather to disarm the person? or to knock them out?



Yes we are allowed to defend ourselves, in a life or death situation, rather to brutially disarm our offenders, or to kill them (if you really really have to and have no other choice but to, or be killed yourself); thats what most cases seem to be about.

Him or You

Ethier your offender dies or you die in war.

in Modern Cases

Her or You
Him or You


Most of all, if you have to kill them in a fight of LoD, You can still be forgiven.


Murder & Killing can be commoned up as two different things, all though the outcome of the event is the same. You can kill some one and not even no it or even beware of it, Murder on the other hand is the attent of getting revenge knowing the fact that you slayed them, makes you a murderer. You can kill someone in a Car by mistake and not have any attentions in murdering them in your heart or mind.


Murder= Revenge, Attentional, and Knowloageble
Killing= can be Unattentional & Unknowingly or Both, merged with Murder.
Outcome of Murdering & Killing = Death, reguardles of the attentions or unattentions of ither preformance.

Murder and Killing can be two of the samething or two very different things, but with the same outcome of the event. Death to Something. theres alot of confusion going on around the difference between killing and murdering, some people just view it as the samething.

Yes murdering is a sin, but have you noticed how alot of Biblical translations have.

the differences between. "Thou Shalt not Kill" and "Thou shall not Murder"?


I do believe God can forgive a person who has killed someone in combat in Self Defence. As in No other way to get out of the Sutiation Life or Death, Him or You.

I believe God can forgive anybody, of any crimes, of any sins. Only Sin God can't forgive is "rejection of Him" Reject God, he can't forgive ya.

Edited August 9, 2004 by White Knight