amarkich Posted August 14, 2004 Share Posted August 14, 2004 (edited) Even the ones that do subscribe to the things which you have stated are still supporting what the Church practiced. It only hurts your credibility to claim that they are the same as liberals. In any event, saying that the TLM gives greater glory to God is different than saying the NO is invalid. The one is true, and the other is not. Also, as I said, BOD/BOB are not Articles of Faith (even the NO priests I have talked to agree here, sorry to break that to you guys who were claiming otherwise), so one is completely in communion with Church teaching to deny this speculative theology. Also, criticizing the Pope (when he is wrong) is not being dissident; it is doing our duty to avoid scandal and to fulfill the Spiritual Works of Mercy. Edited August 14, 2004 by amarkich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted August 14, 2004 Share Posted August 14, 2004 [quote name='amarkich' date='Aug 14 2004, 02:18 PM'] Even the ones that do subscribe to the things which you have stated are still supporting what the Church practiced. It only hurts your credibility to claim that they are the same as liberals. [/quote] No they're not either. They're not supporting authentic Church doctrine -- only their erroneous ideas of what they think Church doctrine is and what they think it's always been. [quote]In any event, saying that the TLM gives greater glory to God is different than saying the NO is invalid. The one is true, and the other is not. [/quote] I realize that, but also, thinking the TLM gives greater glory to God isn't the same as thinking the NO has harmed the Church really bad, regardless of its validity. [quote]Also, as I said, BOD/BOB are not Articles of Faith (even the NO priests I have talked to agree here, sorry to break that to you guys who were claiming otherwise), so one is completely in communion with Church teaching to deny this speculative theology.[/quote] Show me some Church documents that show they're not articles of faith. Where does it explicitly say that one doesn't have to believe in baptism of blood or of desire? [quote] Also, criticizing the Pope (when he is wrong) is not being dissident; it is doing our duty to avoid scandal and to fulfill the Spiritual Works of Mercy.[/quote] Who are you to decide the Pope is wrong? The Pope can never teach incorrectly otherwise that would mean the gates of hell had prevailed against the Church. We all know that ain't gonna happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelFilo Posted August 14, 2004 Share Posted August 14, 2004 (edited) The pople CAN be wrong. Just not on faith and morals. Anyways, yes, it is better to not put him on a higher pedestal than we should. That was the main reason of the bad popes of the renessiance Church. God bless, Mikey Edited August 14, 2004 by MichaelFilo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picchick Posted August 14, 2004 Author Share Posted August 14, 2004 Can someone please tell me what the TLM and BOD/BOB? Also, it is true that the pope can err in anything except when he speaks on faith and morals. However, I understand that we need to critize everything that the Pope has to say. I have not seen that Pope John Paul II has said anything in his lifetime that is contrary to the faith or is questionable. Alot of the distortion comes from the interpretation of the media. If he has said anything please tell me with the source of the information so that I may investigate it myself. God Bless, Meg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted August 14, 2004 Share Posted August 14, 2004 [quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Aug 14 2004, 03:01 PM'] The pople CAN be wrong. Just not on faith and morals. [/quote] That's not what I was saying. I wasn't saying the Pope can never be wrong. What I was saying is that certain people find fault with EVERYTHING the Holy Father says or does. To happen not to agree with him on a certain way that he's chosen to do things is one thing. But being overly critical of everything he says or does puts one on a dangerous road -- one that could eventually lead to straight heresy or schism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted August 14, 2004 Share Posted August 14, 2004 [quote name='picchick' date='Aug 14 2004, 03:29 PM'] Can someone please tell me what the TLM and BOD/BOB? [/quote] TLM = Tridentine Latin Mass BOD = Baptism of Desire BOB = Baptism of Blood Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picchick Posted August 14, 2004 Author Share Posted August 14, 2004 Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amarkich Posted August 14, 2004 Share Posted August 14, 2004 (edited) [color=red][Edited by dUSt: [b]Public[/b] criticism of the magisterium. I don't know how to make this any more clear. IT IS NOT TOLERATED ON PHATMASS. 30 day suspensions for anyone who has multiple warnings. Starting yesterday.][/color] Edited August 15, 2004 by dUSt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picchick Posted August 14, 2004 Author Share Posted August 14, 2004 Wait, I don't understand, BOD and BOB is in the Baltimore Catechism. 321. "How can those be saved who through no fault of their own have not received the sacrament of Baptism?" "Those who through no fault of their own have not recieved the sacrament of Baptism can be saved through what is called the baptism of blood or baptism of desire." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelFilo Posted August 14, 2004 Share Posted August 14, 2004 Picchick, I believe in the BOD/BOB but, for the sake of Mr.Amarkich (Who I've grown to like quite a bit since our views aren't very far apart) I'll state it for him. The Catechism is NOT infalliable. That is, if it contradicts a canon or anything that is infalliable, the infalliable item over rides it. Mr. Amarkich has stated time and time again, that he believes (however apotheon nicely refuted it) that the BOD/BOB are in contradiction of a certain set of canons. The Catechism cannot make something an article of Faith, as it is falliable. With that said, Mr. Amarkich disregards the BOD/BOB statements, as heretical (or so it seems) and contradictiry to infalliable canon. I hope that clears it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted August 15, 2004 Share Posted August 15, 2004 The Cathechism is a magisterial document and a sure norm for the faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picchick Posted August 15, 2004 Author Share Posted August 15, 2004 Thanks cmom. If I had to memorize the Baltimore Catechism and refer to the Catechism of the Catholic Chruch for norms and clarifications of the Churche's teachings then what is their purpose? Where am I to find my information? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelFilo Posted August 15, 2004 Share Posted August 15, 2004 Tradition and the bible. The catechism is not infalliable. It is falliable. Therefore, can be overidden. If you want to dissprove Mr. amarkich, then you can't use the CCC to odo it. He is quoting canon law, therefore, his very source over rides yours. God bless Mikey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted August 15, 2004 Share Posted August 15, 2004 [quote name='amarkich' date='Aug 14 2004, 06:29 PM'] So, we agree pretty much. The Pope can be incorrect in his opinions (we agree), and the NO is not equal to the TLM (at least in all respects)--we agree again. I also believe the NO has harmed the faithful greatly in several ways (not illustrating the truths of the Faith externally by ritual, not offering an uplifting Mass as far as music and holiness are concerned--at least in practice--etc). There is no need to show you a document that says "This is not an Article of Faith." The Church does not say this. The United States does not say "Limbo is not an Article of Faith." The Church only says that teachings [i]are[/i] Articles of Faith. There is no document to say this. There has been no evidence for BOD/BOB being the teaching of the Ordinary Magisterium (the fact that it is in a Catechism does not mean anything; Limbo has been taught more widely in Catechisms and theology books than BOD/BOB and it is not an Article of Faith). As I said, the dissident "Traditionalists" still practice what the Church practiced and believe (mostly) what the Church has always taught whereas the liberals do not practice what the Church practiced (instead they practice "tolerance" and licentiousness); they also do not believe as the Church has believed (the dissident "Traditionalists" believe that the Pope is not truly the Pope, but the liberals believe that the Church is not infallible, that women can be priests, that the universal "priesthood" and the actual Priesthood are the same, that the Church encompasses all believesrs of anything--even nonbelievers--that there are many ways to salvation, that women and men are homogenous, and basically all other heresies put together since Modernism is the culmination of all heresy). Even though the dissident "Traditionalists" (I use the quotation marks because I do not consider them to be true Traditionalists, the way that the Church Fathers, Pope Saint Gregory the Great, Pope Saint Pius V, and the Popes against Modern Errors are Traditionalists). I absolutely agree and believe in everything that every member of the hierarchy says (even if it is not authoritatively; this is what faithful Catholics have always done) [i]unless[/i] he is speaking in such a way as to contradict tradition or faith and morals. In other words, the Bishops who say that the Bible is not historically accurate, the Pope's "New Ecumenism" (in practice), the Pope's ideas about social justice (at least concerning the death penalty and war), the false ecumenism promoted by most Priests, the subjectivism cultivated in catechism classes, and all other heresies which have infiltrated the Church do not have to be (and [i]cannot [/i]be) obeyed. Other than the incorrect teachings, I accept even the opinions of the Pope, the Bishops, and even any Priests I know so long as these opinions do not contradict Church teachings or venerable traditions. It seems that we agree on almost all of the issues. The only issue seems to be that BOD/BOB are not Articles of Faith. Since there has been no evidence for this and since there is no [i]Ex Cathedra [/i]statement concerning them, there is no reason to believe that they are Articles of Faith. If they are not Articles of Faith, they must be examined in regard to Catholic doctrines and Traditions in order to understand whether or not they are valid beliefs at all (this is in the event that they are not Articles of Faith, which has yet to be seen). If they cannot be reconciled legitimately to the defined teachings of the Church (such as the Canons on Baptism from Trent), then they must be discarded as erroneous (and even heretical) since they are incompatible with Catholic teaching. This whole debate, however, hinges on whether or not BOD/BOB are Articles of Faith. Unless one can show that they are, I think that my arguments for their invalidity should be addressed. God bless. Edit: I spaced it out; I hope this is sufficient; if anyone is having problems reading my posts still, please tell me. Thank you. God bless. [/quote] The Cathechism is a magisterial document and a sure norm for the faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted August 15, 2004 Share Posted August 15, 2004 The Catechism of Pius X 17 Q: Can the absence of Baptism be supplied in any other way? A: The absence of Baptism can be supplied by martyrdom, which is called Baptism of Blood, or by an act of perfect love of God, or of contrition, along with the desire, AT LEAST IMPLICIT, of Baptism, and this is called Baptism of Desire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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