Identifying The One True God

[Aloysius]

I apologize.

[amarkich]

Thank you very much. I just re-read my post; it was very forceful, but it is not only offensive but also worrisome for me to read that I have been accused of schism (or heresy, or some other charge) for the simple fact that dUst, by his almighty power, has deigned to grant me a title which he himself deems to be true. Understand, I do not mean dUst disrespect (in fact I spoke with him briefly today on AIM), but it is offensive to say the least that I have been given this title without reasoning, without conviction of any schism or heresy or otherwise (without even an uncharitable word to be found in a single post of mine). It is even more disheartening that I have no means of communicating with dUst and when I did have contact, I never received a reply. I hope that helps explain some things. God bless.

[Aloysius]

yeah i guess i had no right to call you "in schism"

although if you attend SSPX masses u should know that they ARE in schism (not according to them, but according to Rome)

anyway, you should read Morph's post in apologetics regarding one controversial part of the Catechism [url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=17751"]http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=17751[/url]

now, back to the topic

[amarkich]

Thank you, again. I do not attend SSPX Masses and never plan to even step into one of the churches (unless it is to prove that they should be going to an FSSP Mass instead . While much can be said as to what constitutes actual participation in the 'schism' of the SSPX (by the way, is there something that actually declares the Society itself, not just its original founder, to be in schism?), I think that it suffices to say that this is not a safe situation under normal circumstances to attend their Masses frequently. In any event, I thank you for the link. God bless.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[url="http://www.fssp.org/en/protoc5mai.htm"]http://www.fssp.org/en/protoc5mai.htm[/url]
[url="http://www.sspx-schism.com/main.htm"]http://www.sspx-schism.com/main.htm[/url]
Note: The SSPX-Schism website has a lot of ad hominem attacks on certain SSPX priests. I only posted it because it brings up some good points about the Society and it's schism.

Edited August 13, 2004 by thedude

[carrdero]

God Conquers writes: God existed before everything, but everything has a beginning and an end, so God began. BUT God was not created.

Can you think of anything that does not begin without a thought?

God Conquers writes: God is all-powerful, but his power does not extend over us or other sentient beings.

I think the CORRECT meaning I intended to that sentence was GOD’s will (The power of the mind to decide.2. to do deliberate control over thought and action. 3.What is chosen to be done) GOD does not really will us to anything. I K(NOW) he certainly hasn’t’ required any major favors from me lately. This quality in GOD certainly upsets many people who figure; If they can’t be like GOD it certainly would be nice to be in service to him. But GOD has explained that we all have our own will/agenda/goals/PURPOSE/problems/desires/mortgage payments/ car bills/kids to pick up at soccer practice/ jobs that we have to go to everyday/friends to entertain/ ways of trying to get enough sleep. We have ALL(WAYS) made our own decisions. This is a freedom and understanding from GOD. If GOD was to “will” everything to us or make all of our decisions we would be ROBO-SAPIENS instead of HOMO-SAPIENS. We can go to GOD for advice/wisdom/ guidance, this again is another free gift from GOD but initially GOD does not decide for us when it come to our choices and decisions. Looking around the world today and seeing how all the people act and react in our different societies this belief makes much sense to me.

God Conquers writes: In conclusion: Your God is whatever YOU want Him to be.

THIS IS GOOD!!!! You almost got it, except that you have to change a couple of things. Here I will show you.

In conclusion: Your God is whatever HE wants Him to BE.

And don’t forget to capitalize the “BE” for extra emphasis and cool double meaning.

[Aloysius]

this argument has gone nowhere, but I hope at the very least it has given you some idea deep down in your head of a prudence when speaking with the Divine that perhaps some day down the road when this god of yours fails you, you will remember this tiny little seed of thought we have given you. I now bow out of this conversation and offer you my prayers. I pray that you will open your mind and heart to the Trinitarian God.

Pax Dominus Iesus
Agape Per Maria
~*AL*~

[Aloysius]

If you don't like the CCC, try Pope St. Pius X's Catechism:
[quote]
[b]Artical 9 of the Creed[/b]
27 Q: Can one be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic and Roman Church?
A: No, no one can be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic Roman Church, just as no one could be saved from the flood outside the Ark of Noah, which was a figure of the Church.

28 Q: How, then, were the Patriarchs of old, the Prophets, and the other just men of the Old Testament, saved?
A: The just of the Old Testament were saved in virtue of the faith they had in Christ to come, by means of which they spiritually belonged to the Church.

29 Q: But if a man through no fault of his own is outside the Church, can he be saved?
A: If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God's will as best he can such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation

30 Q: Suppose that a man is a member of the Catholic Church, but does not put her teaching into practice, will he be saved?
A: He who is a member of the Catholic Church and does not put her teaching into practice is a dead member, and hence will not be saved; for towards the salvation of an adult not only Baptism and faith are required, but, furthermore, works in keeping with faith.

31 Q: Are we obliged to believe all the truths the Church teaches us?
A: Yes, we are obliged to believe all the truths the Church teaches us, and Jesus Christ declares that he who does not believe is already condemned.

32 Q: Are we also obliged to do all that the Church commands?
A: Yes, we are obliged to do all that the Church commands, for Jesus Christ has said to the Pastors of the Church: "He who hears you, hears Me, and he who despises you, despises Me."

33 Q: Can the Church err in what she proposes for our belief?
A: No, the Church cannot err in what she proposes for our belief, since according to the promise of Jesus Christ she is unfailingly assisted by the Holy Ghost.

[/quote]

[God Conquers]

I find it rather difficult to follow some of your arguments because of the grammar you use...

Why are you putting paretheses around the word know, and why is it capitalized?

As for God's will:

We all have Free Will: this much is clear to everyone. We do what we want.

However, that does not mean that God does not have a will for us. God wishes us to be eternally happy, to spend eternity with our Creator. He does not force us to do so, because in that case we would be "robo-sapiens". We are not, however, forced to do God's will.

Most of us on this site however, will attest to the freedom and joy resultant in living for God and for others rather than for oneself. We are all happier to be living in God's plan.

This is not a result of us forming our own conception of God, or creating for ourselves a personal image of Him, or a personal morality, but by following God as He has ACTUALLY revealed Himself in History, through coming to earth and becoming Man.

[lifeteenchick527]

[quote name='God Conquers' date='Aug 13 2004, 06:19 AM'] We all have Free Will: this much is clear to everyone. We do what we want.
[/quote]
We dont do wat we want if he have free will...free will is the ability to do wat you SHOULD DO...not to do what ever you want (just thought i would add that...God Bless)

Edited August 13, 2004 by lifeteenchick527

[carrdero]

God Conquers writes: Why are you putting paretheses around the word know, and why is it capitalized?

K(NOW)- to know (or understand) in the NOW.

Many people sometimes forget that they live today “in the NOW”. Since the world is ever changing it is important to understand or K(NOW) in the NOW.

God Conquers writes: We all have Free Will: this much is clear to everyone. We do what we want.

Never forget that last line “we do what we want” because you will witness it anywhere you go with anyone that you meet. As far as this human quality BEing clear to everyone it is not. Some people do not think that their life is their own or they do not think that they are in control of their destiny or existence. There are some people who “do what they want” and wonder why events turn out the way they do. Some people blame GOD. Some people blame Satan. Both are poor excuses. This was a very profound statement from God Conquers and I want to thank him for bringing that out.

God Conquers writes: However, that does not mean that God does not have a will for us. God wishes us to be eternally happy, to spend eternity with our Creator.

This line sort of disproves your last line. I do not think that GOD wishes us to be eternally happy, sad, joyous, disappointed, bad or evil. Again GOD can wish/will/expect all GOD wants, if people will ALL(WAYS) “do what they want”, and it is not in alignment with GOD’s will/expectations/wishes this makes for a very naïve/disappointed/discouraged GOD and I really cannot believe that GOD is like that. If anything I think GOD would understand about the kind of existence that is expected of us in the physical realm and maybe just offer the advice of “just do the best you can”. Your example above would be like GOD throwing/placing us down to earth and saying “BE HAPPY!!” but then when we get to earth we find out that we don’t want to BE happy eternally or otherwise. Again if you need verification to my statement look around you at all the many lives that are BEing lived. Do you really think that some people want to live happily?

God Conquers writes: He does not force us to do so, because in that case we would be "robo-sapiens". We are not, however, forced to do God's will.

But in the same breath, right here on this forum, I was told that if you do not do what GOD says that there is judgment/punishment/sentencing from GOD. How do you account for this? Many Christians have explained to me that if you do not do GOD’s will that GOD becomes angry/discouraged/vengeful/disappointed/wrathful. Why would a Supreme BEing encourage these emotions? What do our lives have to do with GOD’s will/agenda/PURPOSE/goals. Does anyone here actually believe that GOD is like this?

God Conquers writes: Most of us on this site however, will attest to the freedom and joy resultant in living for God and for others rather than for oneself.

Yes there are some qualities in GOD that are worth adapting (there are some qualities in other entities that are worth adapting too)
But I cannot see any freedom or joy living “for” someone else. When ever you live “for” someone else there is bound to be some focus/ attention/ freedom that is taken away from you. I can see freedom and joy living “with” someone else but not “for”.

God Conquers writes: This is not a result of us forming our own conception of God, or creating for ourselves a personal image of Him, or a personal morality, but by following God as He has ACTUALLY revealed Himself in History, through coming to earth and becoming Man.


It [b]is[/b] a result of forming your own conception of GOD. It is a collective conception. The only difference between your relationship with GOD and mine is that your relationship is collective and mine is one on one. Some people cannot believe that I have gone behind the church’s back to conduct my relationship with GOD. Some people have wondered why did I sneak off and take up a personal relationship with GOD when all the answers to GOD are right here in this book and this church. I did not want a collective relationship with GOD, I wanted a personal relationship. Why because my desires/wants/needs/life/beliefs do not resemble anyone else’s. I am not a big fan of history or other people’s historical relationships with GOD, I do not live out my relationships vicariously through other people’s relationships. This is not how you come to get to K(NOW) other entities, whether they are GOD, the president, your neighbors next door or friends and family.

Edited August 13, 2004 by carrdero

[God Conquers]

[quote]This was a very profound statement from God Conquers and I want to thank him for bringing that out.[/quote]

You're welcome.

[quote]this makes for a very naïve/disappointed/discouraged GOD and I really cannot believe that GOD is like that[/quote]

Why couldn't God be sad? If He created us and we refuse to acknowledge Him, and then hurt ourselves by that refusal and by our actions, He has every right to be sad. If you make something, and it doesn't function according to plan, wouldn't you be sad and dissapointed? It wouldn't mean you love it less, but that you are simply sad.

[quote]the advice of “just do the best you can”[/quote]

This is His advice. All we have to do is listen to the rest of it.

[quote]Your example above would be like GOD throwing/placing us down to earth and saying “BE HAPPY!!” but then when we get to earth we find out that we don’t want to BE happy eternally or otherwise. [/quote]

Everyone wants to be happy. Some of us don't know how, and in our attempts to make ourselves happy, we actually make ourselves miserable, by doing things which we think will make us happy, but which turn out ultimately to be simply self-destructive.

[quote]Many Christians have explained to me that if you do not do GOD’s will that GOD becomes angry/discouraged/vengeful/disappointed/wrathful. Why would a Supreme BEing encourage these emotions? What do our lives have to do with GOD’s will/agenda/PURPOSE/goals. Does anyone here actually believe that GOD is like this?[/quote]

Those Christians are wrong.

God does not send us to Hell or punish us. We punish ourselves. A life lived in unhappiness in defiance of God, can not stand mercy, can not stand love, can not stand happiness, and so end up punishing themselves when faced with a God who is All-merciful, All-love and All-Joy.

Our lives have EVERYTHING to do with God's will/agenda/purpose/goal.
Who creates something and then just forgets/ignores/doesn't care about it. This is ludicrous.
God created us and loves us. He wants us to be happy. God'd purpose for us is ETERNAL HAPPINESS! If we follow this purpose we will acheive it, for Him and for us.


[quote]But I cannot see any freedom or joy living “for” someone else. When ever you live “for” someone else there is bound to be some focus/ attention/ freedom that is taken away from you. I can see freedom and joy living “with” someone else but not “for”.[/quote]

Really? Nothing? What about mothers and fathers? They live for their children.

What about being the guardian of a disabled person?

What about giving up your life to save another's?

What about politics, where you live for your constituents (or should)?

What about police, firemen, military and other heroes who live for us to protect us and serve us?

Why couldn't God live and die for us?

[quote]
The only difference between your relationship with GOD and mine is that your relationship is collective and mine is one on one.[/quote]

Wrong. I have a one-on-one relationship with God. In fact, my relationship is infinitely more personal than yours, because my relationship is with a God who is a living, breathing God, one who has experienced everything it means to be Human. He understands me completely, and I am able to understand Him more because of it.


We come to know God through our experience, and our encounters with him.

However, how can you experience and encounter a God who has never experienced and encountered you?

My God (and your God too once you understand Him) is a God who DESIRES a relationship, a PERSONAL relationship with you. He desires it SO MUCH that he actually entered into time to take your form and to die for YOU (PERSONALLY).

He stands at the door of your heart knocking. Open the door and He will enter in and dine with you.

[Tora-Musume]

Wow, you are gone for a few days and you miss so much . ANywho. I wanted to join in the conversation. If you all don't mind.

[quote]God Conquers,Aug 13 2004, 12:25 PM] Why couldn't God be sad? If He created us and we refuse to acknowledge Him, and then hurt ourselves by that refusal and by our actions, He has every right to be sad. If you make something, and it doesn't function according to plan, wouldn't you be sad and dissapointed? It wouldn't mean you love it less, but that you are simply sad.[/quote]

I wouldn't be sad. If I had created something or someone and for some reason it does not fall through, I would not be sad. I will undertand why it happend and will not love it less, but I will not be sad. It doesn't mean that I will forget. Am I making any sence ? Probably not.

[quote]Everyone wants to be happy. Some of us don't know how, and in our attempts to make ourselves happy, we actually make ourselves miserable, by doing things which we think will make us happy, but which turn out ultimately to be simply self-destructive.[/quote]

Can I use a child having a child as an example?

Ok...a child (13-18 or what ever age a child maybe) has a child because they feel that they will be happy if they had a child to take care of. When this child has this child, they come to realize how much hard work a child can be. You are making it sound like that this example is a self-distructive one. It's not self-distructive. It's learning and understanding. This child that has a child will learn to care for this child. Am I making any sence? Again, probably not.

[quote]carrdero Posted on Aug 13 2004, 10:34 AM
Many Christians have explained to me that if you do not do GOD’s will that GOD becomes angry/discouraged/vengeful/disappointed/wrathful.[/quote]

I sooo totally agree with you on this. I have come to realize that a lot of the post that I have read, Christians have explained this to me too.


[quote]Those Christians are wrong.[/quote]

[quote]carrdero Posted on Aug 13 2004, 10:34 AM
But I cannot see any freedom or joy living “for” someone else. When ever you live “for” someone else there is bound to be some focus/ attention/ freedom that is taken away from you. I can see freedom and joy living “with” someone else but not “for”.[/quote]

[quote]Really? Nothing? What about mothers and fathers? They live for their children.[/quote]

I lived with several parents.

[quote]What about being the guardian of a disabled person?[/quote]

You choose to live a life for a disabled person. What about your life? Wouldn't you want to live the life for yourself as oppose to with yourself?


[quote]What about giving up your life to save another's?[/quote]

Do doctors and anyone in any field that saves lives want to give their lives for others?

[quote]What about politics, where you live for your constituents (or should)?[/quote]

I don't like politics and I don't vote. Shame on me.

[quote]Why couldn't God live and die for us?[/quote]

Would you want someone to die for you? I wouldn't want anyone to die for me. I would like them to live and die for themselves and not for me. I appreciate the thought, but No Thanks. I wouldn't want my family to die for me. If they did, they will be choosing to leave other loved once behind. What if my sister chose to die for me and she left her children motherless? I have no children so I would rather die for me then have her die for me.


[quote]However, how can you experience and encounter a God who has never experienced and encountered you?[/quote]

He experienced and encountered me.

[quote]He desires it SO MUCH that he actually entered into time to take your form and to die for YOU (PERSONALLY).[/quote]

I am sorry to say this, but he didn't have to die for me. I wouldn't have wanted him to die for me. I want a time machine.


Ok...I am going away for the weekend. Hope everyone has a great weekend and take care.

542 ~<~<{@ for ALL

Edited August 14, 2004 by Tora-Musume

[carrdero]

God Conquers writes: Why couldn't God be sad?

I am not explaining away GOD’s right to be sad or to express any other emotion. But you must REMEMBER GOD is a very UNDERSTANDING BEing. GOD through observance, UNDERSTANDS every aspect of the human condition and what it is like to live in a physical existence. We as humans do not (but we are understanding or at least we should try to be). Things that make us sad or get us upset may not get GOD upset or sad. One of the biggest misconceptions about GOD is that GOD thinks/understands/believes and emotionally responds like humans do. Nothing could be farther from TRUTH. One of the most important TRUTHS that I have discovered in my human existence is that only you (personally) can make yourself happy, sad or mad no ONE else can/should define this for you.

God Conquers writes: If He created us and we refuse to acknowledge Him, and then hurt ourselves by that refusal and by our actions, He has every right to be sad.

GOD and other spiritual entities created the means for us to occupy a physical existence but it is eventually our choice to live a physical existence. (For example GOD and other spiritual entities built the “housing and the plumbing”, in this case the human shell, we as spiritual entities choose to take residency in these human shells (models). Not ONE entity has ever incarnated on earth without expressing a desire to carry out that existence on earth. You may not REMEMBER that you made that decision or that you had the choice (and GOD understands this) but it is all part of the FREE WILL that we have. If GOD put us on this earth that would completely go against the freedom that GOD gives us and the freedom that we are allowed to express to ourselves. You are not on earth to live life for GOD you are here for your own experiences (whatever that might be). If you discover/recognize GOD (accurately) during this existence I am sure you may consider yourself fortunate but it is certainly not mandatory.

God Conquers writes: If you make something, and it doesn't function according to plan, wouldn't you be sad and dissapointed?

I do not think I would be sad or disappointed as much as I would learn where I made my mistake so that I may try again but I understand where you are coming from. I am an artist, when something doesn’t work out for me, I look at why it doesn’t work, crumple up the paper throw it away and start again. No big deal. I do not think that anyone would want GOD doing this to us (his garbage removal bill would be phenomenal!!). Like I mentioned above GOD created the means for human life, we provide/supply the existence and experience. Should we BE sad or disappointed when the PURPOSE of our life doesn’t meet our expectations, I do not K(NOW), it depends on the individual and what PURPOSE they are trying to fulfill.

God Conquers writes: Everyone wants to be happy.

But there are so many different ways to be happy. Each individual has their own theory/take on happiness or joy. I think people mistake drama for happiness too. You do not choose a physical existence exclusively to be happy. You choose a human existence to experience something or to fulfill a PURPOSE. I am not saying we are down here to “learn” (though maybe some people choose this) or to relieve some sort of “karma” because I do not believe in that. If we experience JOY consider it a blessing but do not expect what makes you JOYous will make another individual JOYous.

God Conquers writes: God does not send us to Hell or punish us.

You are CORRECT in stating this.

God Conquers writes: We punish ourselves.

I would lose the “punish” in the sentence above but yes I would agree that the situations that we find ourselves we put ourselves into. But who are we (or GOD) to judge that this is not what we intended to do to help us experience or understand something in this physical existence? It is difficult to tell and not our place to judge. But this is a whole other debate.

God Conquers writes: A life lived in unhappiness in defiance of God, can not stand mercy, can not stand love, can not stand happiness, and so end up punishing themselves when faced with a God who is All-merciful, All-love and All-Joy.

Again we cannot defy a GOD who has given us the freedom to live our lives the way we intended. Even I have experienced (personally) the positive qualities of GOD and have understood why GOD chooses to exist that way but that in no way PROOVES my life and the decisions I choose to live and the experiences that I choose to understand.

God Conquers writes: Who creates something and then just forgets/ignores/doesn't care about it.

I do not feel abandoned by GOD. In fact we have a very understanding relationship. GOD has not forgotten me (as a matter of fact we are getting together tonight for tea). Anybody who feels this way has not come to an accurate K(NOW)ledge of GOD. To some people it may seem that GOD doesn’t care about humans but the one thing that you can never say about GOD is that GOD is care-less (careless).

God Conquers writes: God created us and loves us.

GOD created the program for human life. WE (as individual entities) created ourselves. And yes, GOD LOVES us no matter what we decide or do.

God Conquers writes: God'd purpose for us is ETERNAL HAPPINESS! If we follow this purpose we will acheive it, for Him and for us.

GOD’s PURPOSE for GOD is for GOD only, not for us. Do not adopt/covet/envy/expect anyone else’s PURPOSE. Our PURPOSE is our own and cannot be given to us, it has to be discovered, planned and experienced. Can GOD help us? If you ask him he will help you to understand which direction you should take.

God Conquers quotes carrdero: But I cannot see any freedom or joy living “for” someone else. When ever you live “for” someone else there is bound to be some focus/ attention/ freedom that is taken away from you. I can see freedom and joy living “with” someone else but not “for”.

God Conquers writes: Really? Nothing? What about mothers and fathers? They live for their children.

They should live with their children not for them. I have met parents who live exclusively for their children and they do not even remember their own names. The only thing parents are really responsible for is to clothe/shelter/feed children when they are incapable of doing so themselves. It would be best to teach children early to live for themselves which they will eventually do when they become older. Children are entities that have their own agendas/will/goals/PURPOSE as well as their parents do. GOD and I have discussed the relationship with parents and children at great length but I do believe this is another topic for debate.

What about being the guardian of a disabled person?

What about giving up your life to save another's?

What about politics, where you live for your constituents (or should)?

What about police, firemen, military and other heroes who live for us to protect us and serve us?

Why couldn't God live and die for us?

Again these are all choices that people make for themselves and are not dictated by GOD’s will. You can choose not to do these things just as easily as you can choose to do them. No one says that you are obligated to make these decisions. If you enjoy doing these things I say fine, go ahead and do them but be prepared that you are going to have to give something of yourself in return. If you notice that I quoted myself above I said that “I cannot see any freedom or joy living “for” someone else” again that is my personal belief, other people have their own beliefs on this subject.

God Conquers writes: Wrong. I have a one-on-one relationship with God. In fact, my relationship is infinitely more personal than yours, because my relationship is with a God who is a living, breathing God, one who has experienced everything it means to be Human. He understands me completely, and I am able to understand Him more because of it.

If you say that you have this relationship with your GOD I will believe you but there are many people who do not get to experience this type of relationship in their lifetime. They believe that accurate knowledge of GOD comes from a book or a place or another person and that they have to rely on faith and history when all they have to do is enter into a worthwhile sincere personal relationship with GOD in the NOW.

God Conquers writes: My God (and your God too once you understand Him) is a God who DESIRES a relationship, a PERSONAL relationship with you. He desires it SO MUCH that he actually entered into time to take your form and to die for YOU (PERSONALLY).

I think I understand MY GOD pretty well. Though there is ALL(WAYS) room for more understanding I shall never stop wondering and experiencing.

[MichaelFilo]

Aside from the total waste of time I see myself indulging in when I reply to posts like this, I'd just like to say, Tora, you are not reading things for what they are.

[quote]
I wouldn't be sad. If I had created something or someone and for some reason it does not fall through, I would not be sad. I will undertand why it happend and will not love it less, but I will not be sad. It doesn't mean that I will forget. Am I making any sence  ?  Probably not. [/quote]

Being sad about something doesn't make you love it any less. Your logic is shoddy here. Your daughter could wreck your car driving without a liscence, and loses an arm doing so. This could make you sad, however, you don't love her any less. Being sad doesn't mean less love.

[quote]
Ok...a child (13-18 or what ever age a child maybe) has a child because they feel that they will be happy if they had a child to take care of. When this child has this child, they come to realize how much hard work a child can be. You are making it sound like that this example is a self-distructive one. It's not self-distructive. It's learning and understanding. This child that has a child will learn to care for this child. Am I making any sence? Again, probably not. [/quote]

If, within marriage they have a child at that age, it's not self-destructive. No one said that. As a matter of fact, it's a beautiful thing to marry young in my opinoin. This isn't self-desctructive, and since it isn't really against God's will (generally speaking, I don't always know God's will) it isn't self-destructive. What GC was saying is that, when we look to be happy in other things than God, and look to fulfill our need for God elsewhere, it becomes self-destructive. Examples are, drugs, sex, violence, etc.

[quote]I sooo totally agree with you on this. I have come to realize that a lot of the post that I have read, Christians have explained this to me too. [/quote]

God can love someone and be angry with him at the same time. Just as you can be angry at your child for not listening to you and getting into trouble, so can God. Neither of these cases does the love decrease.

[quote]
You choose to live a life for a disabled person. What about your life? Wouldn't you want to live the life for yourself as oppose to with yourself?[/quote]

This is called "me" thinking. It happens to occur from the society we live in, where everything we do must have some reward in it for ourselves. That is silly. Spending your life helping the less fortunate is awesome. You get heavenly rewards, which last an eternity. What your suggesting is selfishness, since you don't see any need for sacraficial giving.

[quote]Do doctors and anyone in any field that saves lives want to give their lives for others? [/quote]

What are you talking about? GC said that the greatest love one can have is that of laying his life down for a friend. What do doctors have to do with anything?

[quote]Would you want someone to die for you? I wouldn't want anyone to die for me. I would like them to live and die for themselves and not for me. I appreciate the thought, but No Thanks. I wouldn't want my family to die for me. If they did, they will be choosing to leave other loved once behind. What if my sister chose to die for me and she left her children motherless? I have no children so I would rather die for me then have her die for me.
[/quote]

Dieing for someone is out of love. Your example again is so off topic, but I'll respond. If your sister died for you, it's because out of her love she wanted you to live. It really doesn't matter what you want. If you dislike the idea of someone loving you so much they'd give their life for you, then you probably will never form a relationship where the love is so strong between you and whoever it is that may lay their life down for you.

[quote]I am sorry to say this, but he didn't have to die for me. I wouldn't have wanted him to die for me. I want a time machine.  [/quote]

There is no salvation outside of Jesus. Jesus died for us all. You may not want God to love you so much He'd turn himself over to humans to be crucified so that we can relate with our God. So that we can know, out of His love, He humbled himself for us, so that we can again live in spiritual grace, and have hopes for salvation.

God bless,

Mikey

[i]Postscriptum[/i] It maybe good to test your own logic before posting. You may find it makes the job easier on us guys who have to respond to such long posts.

Edited August 14, 2004 by MichaelFilo