Bush Is Not Pro-life...

[AnomilE]

[quote name='dUSt' date='Aug 6 2004, 10:55 AM'] And just to remind AnomilE, most of the questions I've raised have been left unanswered. Thanks. [/quote]
First, I'm not sure why you insist on attacking me since I ahve addressed tih with charisty from the beginning.

Second, if you feel none of your questions have been answered, go back and read the previously posted comments I've made- I've answered every one of your questions (some more than once I might add).

If you feel I haven't, then what haven't I answered?

[AnomilE]

[quote name='qfnol31' date='Aug 6 2004, 11:27 AM'] Same here. [/quote]
What have I failed to answer?

[AnomilE]

[quote name='CatholicAndFanatical' date='Aug 6 2004, 11:16 AM'] Since you only commented on my first few sentences in my post, I will rehash the rest for you:

Where exactly is this dude you're pushing for living at? I've never heard of him or seen him doing conferences.

Are you just playing pretend with us or what? This 'hey wouldnt it be nice to have a 100% moral President' imagination is good to talk about, but isnt reality.

To add to this, your guy is not 100% perfect either, for one he's not Catholic. To use a Catholic standard to a president is to have a Catholic President only..no one else will do. And your guy isnt even Catholic..that takes him out of our beacon area all together.

This guy hasnt campaigned that I know of, hasnt been out trying to get elected or anything. So if you want to start living in real life then you must know that we only have two options as Americans. One is evil, the other isnt.

You are suggesting that we not vote at all. How dumb is that? That will assure Kerry to win.

If you dont vote, then dont gripe about not liking something the President does because its your fault he's in office.

Point is, the chance of this guy being President is nill, none, zilch, nanah! Even if we all agreed here that he would be a better pick (which since he's not Catholic, we wont agree he is better).

As Catholics we only have one choice. I dont like Bush that much either, but our (note: [b]OUR![/b]) focus is on protecting the innocent and only one choice can do that and only one choice will further our cause.


God Bless [/quote]
I guess you've missed my previous posts, as a few other have.

My allegiance is not to Michael Peroutka (www.constitutionparty.com to answer your questions about him)

My allegiance is to the constant teaching of the Church, and under that I have yet to see a good argument as to how we can legitimately vote for Bush since hw allows for abortion and even funds it in some circumstances.

[AnomilE]

Under the logic that i've heard from most of you, am I to assume that if I go into a store and am only offered products that compromise my morality in some way, but in other ways are good, that I am choose one of them regardless, simply for the sake of the good they posess? I've never heard of such a thing. As a Catholic I reserve the right to resist what I'm offered if it compromises the morality of my faith until they offer me something better. Show me how otherwise would be true.

[qfnol31]

No, because you have a choice on whether or not the books will enter your home. You do not have a choice about someone making into office, for it will happen. The only choice you have in elections is deciding who that person could be. It isn't about compromising, but it's about keeping a great evil from happening.

[qfnol31]

[quote name='MorphRC' date='Aug 6 2004, 09:11 AM']
He has, but with that he has also ended up killing innocent people in other countries, while at the sametime as people here claim, trying to restrict abortion as much as possible. So it almost cancels itself out.

You cant support Pro-Life, Then Go Off to War and Kill 100's of Innocent Iraqis and Soldiers. [/quote]
He is working hard not to kill innocent people. How many people can claim that when they went to war?

And I don't think that the soldiers are all that innocent.

[qfnol31]

[quote name='MorphRC' date='Aug 6 2004, 09:12 AM'] To put that last comment in Context, I know people will rip that to bits. What im saying is, Its hard to trust a person who supports Pro-Life but has no problem attacking a soveign nation and killing its citizens. [/quote]
He doesn't condone the killing of Iraqi citizens, just the soldiers, which is how a war is fought.

Not all wars are bad, and we are allowed to disagree on this issue (I'm refraining from saying much because I don't want this thread closed).

LoL, by the way. War is normally between two sovereign nations. (I think that the just war theory says it has to be).

[qfnol31]

[quote name='AnomilE' date='Aug 6 2004, 12:42 PM'] My allegiance is to the constant teaching of the Church, and under that I have yet to see a good argument as to how we can legitimately vote for Bush since hw allows for abortion and even funds it in some circumstances. [/quote]
Would you mind:

1. Finding a source for me, please?
2. Say how allowing the possibility of having Kerry in office is better than allowing Bush in?

[qfnol31]

[quote name='AnomilE' date='Aug 6 2004, 12:42 PM'] My allegiance is to the constant teaching of the Church... [/quote]
Will abortions increase as a result of Kerry being voted into office? I would say so, because I could see him re-legalizing partial-birth abortions and such.

Are these babies that won't be born important to God? Of course they are! Would He want them to live? If He didn't, He wouldn't have willed their conception.

Would He want us to do all in our power to save these babies? Yes He would!

Is there a strong enough possibility of a third party candidate winning for us to consider them as an option? I don't think so. No one's come close enough, and I don't think anyone stands a chance against Bush and Kerry.

Therefore, why shouldn't we vote for Bush? Voting for Kerry or denying is like saying those babies aren't important. Voting for a third-party candidate who has virtually no chance of winning seems to me like not voting. The less babies that would be lost as a result of Bush in the Presidency seems worth it to me.

[1337 k4th0l1x0r]

I know some people are saying that everything will not go haywire if Kerry gets elected president and a pro-life Congress is still around. The problem is that the pro-choice liberal judges Kerry wants to appoint to all levels of federal courts are the type that will take radical judicial action and really unsettle the checks and balances to a point where our government will probably collapse. Yes, I said collapse.

The balance of power between branches of government hasn't been in this much peril since the impeachment of Andrew Johnson.

[CatholicAndFanatical]

[quote name='AnomilE' date='Aug 6 2004, 01:46 PM'] Under the logic that i've heard from most of you, am I to assume that if I go into a store and am only offered products that compromise my morality in some way, but in other ways are good, that I am choose one of them regardless, simply for the sake of the good they posess? I've never heard of such a thing. As a Catholic I reserve the right to resist what I'm offered if it compromises the morality of my faith until they offer me something better. Show me how otherwise would be true. [/quote]
You are comparing apples to oranges here. If I was at a store and I didnt like what they had to offer I would find a store that did. I have a choice in this matter.

But electing a President is much deeper than this.

We can agree until were blue in the face that there are better people out there fit to run the country besides Bush and Kerry. But all that would do is make me look like papa smurf.

What we need to do is look at the cards presented before us. There is nothing we can do about the cards. We cant fold, we cant ask for two more. We have what we have.

What card am I going to pick? I have to choose one!

By me not choosing one, I"ve already chose. Like it or not. And If I dont help choose the one that saves lives then the one that will kill lives is sure to win.

I dont think you understand this, if you do then you're not making it clear that you understand it.

You dont like Bush, you dont like Kerry. So what? You are not going to vote at all?
You know if you do that, it puts Kerry higher in the ranks right? You know that if you dont vote it gives Kerry more of a chance to win. Do you want this?

These are the cards, take it but you cant leave it.

Only other option is to move to Canada or Mexico. I'll help you pack

[littleflower+JMJ]

straight from the Bishops.....

[quote]Moral Duties Concerning Voting

We encourage all citizens, particularly Catholics, to embrace their citizenship not merely as a duty and privilege, but as an opportunity meaningfully to participate in building the culture of life. Every voice matters in the public forum. Every vote counts. Every act of responsible citizenship is an exercise of significant individual power. [b]We must exercise that power in ways that defend human life, especially those of God's children who are unborn, disabled or otherwise vulnerable. We get the public officials we deserve. Their virtue–or lack thereof–is a judgment not only on them, but on us.[/b] [u]Because of this we urge our fellow citizens to see beyond party politics, to analyze campaign rhetoric critically and to choose their political leaders according to principle, not party affiliation or mere self-interest. [/u]

[Living the Gospel of Life: A Challenge to American Catholics 34, National Conference of Catholic Bishops, November 1998][/quote]

then here is something also to keep in mind.....

[quote]a Catholic can have an [b]obligation[/b] to vote so as to prevent an unworthy candidate, an enemy of religion, liberty and morals, from coming into office.[/quote]

now after reading those two quotes above we must acknowledge what is our primary issue? that shatters and makes our country's foundation unstable?

[b]Abortion.[/b] because the right to life is both logically and actually prior to all other rights since liberty is meaningless to those who have been unjustly killed. and direct abortion is an intrinsic evil, and cannot be justified for any purpose or in any circumstances

[quote]As Pope John Paul II has emphasized, the [b]denial of the right to life[/b], in principle, sets the stage, in principle, for the denial of all other rights[/quote]

The protection of innocent human life is thus the first obligation of society and voting.

and from the Holy Father this.....

[quote]The Holy Father enunciated this principle of the lesser evil with respect to legislation,  which while not obtaining the goals which Catholic principles would demand, nonetheless, excludes even worse legislation, or corrects, in part, legislation already in force that is even more opposed to Catholic principles.

A particular problem of conscience can arise in cases where a legislative vote would be decisive for the passage of a more restrictive law, aimed at limiting the number of authorized abortions, in place of a more permissive law already passed or ready to be voted on. ... In a case like the one just mentioned, when it is not possible to overturn or completely abrogate a pro-abortion law, an elected official, whose absolute personal opposition to procured abortion was well known, could licitly support proposals aimed at limiting the harm done by such a law and at lessening its negative consequences at the level of general opinion and public morality. [b]This does not in fact represent an illicit cooperation with an unjust law, but rather a legitimate and proper attempt to limit its evil aspects[/b]. [Gospel of Life 73] [/quote]

the motive is really the choice of a good, the limitation of evil by a worse candidate....we are not coroporating with evil, we are trying to stop it....

now as for your thread, Bush is indeed pro-life....

[quote]President George W Bush- Signed the Partial Birth Abortion Act into law on Nov 5 2003 and said "for years, a terrible form of violence has been directed against children who are inches from birth, while the law looked the other way."
Senator John Kerry- Voted no on the PBA ban act and voted numerous times against previous attempts to outlaw partial birth abortion.

Bush- Signed the Unborn Victims of Violence Act (Laci and Connors law) into law on April 1 2004. This recognizes unborn children as victims when they are injured or killed during the commission of federal or military crimes.
Kerry- Voted against the UVV act and voted in favor of a sub amendment that would have only recognized one victim when a pregnant woman and her child are attacked.

Bush- Early in his presidency GWB reinstated the Mexico City policy, which prevents tax dollars from being given to organizations that perform and promote abortions overseas.
Kerry- Has stated that his first executive order if elected would be to "reverse the Mexico City policy..." This action would give our tax dollars to organizations that perform and promote abortions overseas.

Bush- Is against taxpayer dollars being used to pay for abortions. While he was governor of TX, Bush filed a friend of the court brief stating his strong opposition to an attempt to compel the state to pay for elective abortions.
Kerry- Voted numerous times to allow abortions at US military medical facilities and has voted at least 25 times in favor of using taxpayer dollars to pay for abortions in the US

Bush- Has addressed the March for Life via telephone.
Kerry- Attends and is a featured speaker at pro-abortion rallies.

Bush- Backs a ban on all human cloning.
Kerry- Opposes a ban on all human cloning.

Bush- Endorsed by numerous prolife organizations including Right to Life of MI Political Action Committee.
Kerry- Endorsed by Planned Parenthood Action Fund. Planned Parenthood is Americas #1 abortion provider, providing 227,375 abortions in 2002.

Bush- Ruled that federally controlled substances cannot be used to assist in suicides.
Kerry- Has said that we will fillibuster any Supreme Court nominees who don't support abortion and if elected president would only nominate judges who support his position on abortion. [/quote]

now you see what can happen if Bush is not in office to keep defending life?


your not goign to find a perfect candidate....but as catholics we're looking for the one who will most likely uphold Church's teachings....especially on issues on abortion that are [b]primary[/b] issues

your clearly ignoring the fact that we have the duty to save those unborn babies lives....which is wrong to do...since our Church instructs to vote for the defenseless before everything else.....and base our vote upon.

[b]To claim the right to abortion, infanticide and euthanasia, and to recognize that right in law, means to attribute to human freedom a perverse and evil significance: that of an absolute power over others and against others. This is the death of true freedom: "Truly, truly, I say to you, every one who commits sin is a slave to sin" (John 8:34). [Gospel of Life 20][/b]

the issues that WE have to focus on are issues of of anti-abortion and anti-family since both can and will cause our society to doublefold within itself.......

the right of LIFE is what we must continue to open hold....

fact is, Bush has done this, his actions prove it and his pro-life........

and if we do not try to stop the one of greater evil from entering office (kerry) we could be responsible....

[quote] 
205. Voting is a civic duty which would seem to bind at least under venial sin whenever a good candidate has an unworthy opponent. It might even be a mortal sin if one's refusal to vote would [b]result in the election of an unworthy candidate[/b]. [Moral Theology (Dublin: Mercier Press, 1929, 1955)]

Father Heribert Jone, OFM Cap.[/quote]

as catholics we can vote for Bush.....He is in the right when it comes to non-negioatable issues that we cannot clump together with the rest due it its gravity and state of importunate.....

[quote]St. Thomas Aquinas put it this way: “Wherefore human laws do not forbid all vices, from which the virtuous abstain, but only the [b]more grievous vices[/b], from which it is possible for the majority to abstain; and chiefly those that are to the hurt of others, without the prohibition of which human society could not be maintained: thus human law prohibits murder, theft and such like.”[/quote]

there are Many reasons why to vote for Bush, who is fighting against clonig, stem cell research, abortion and same-sex marraige....ALL things our Church has taught cannot and should not happen....thus its our duty to stop them.....

which can only happen if we vote for a candidate who will be able to win and make a difference.....

last our Holy Father once again...

[quote]As Pope John Paul II explains in his encyclical, Evangelium Vitae (The Gospel of Life), “…[b]when it is not possible to overturn or completely abrogate a pro-abortion law, an elected official, whose absolute personal opposition to procured abortion was well known, could licitly support proposals aimed at limiting the harm done by such a law and at lessening its negative consequences at the level of general opinion and morality. This does not in fact represent an illicit cooperation with an unjust law, but rather a legitimate and proper attempt to limit its evil aspects.”[/b] [/quote]

i hope you can see now that it is a matter of life and death...both for unborn babies and our society if we do not step to our catholic duty and defend life in the most best way we are capable of doing........

Bush is our only option in this election.........his pro-life stance will save lives....

we know Our Holy Mother Church leads us in how to defend life...and now what Our Holy Father has said to take a stand on, and our Bishops have instructed..and we need to listen.....

the question is not if his 200% pro-life or not, but whether we need to vote for him in order to keep a greater evil opponent out (espeically when it comes to abortion, firstmost)....which I have explained and supported above...

because in elections we have to go by what we got....

God bless.
+JMJ+

[IcePrincessKRS]

Ya know... I hate to say it but I'm really beginning to hate these threads. I want the election to be over already....

[littleflower+JMJ]

[quote name='IcePrincessKRS' date='Aug 6 2004, 07:05 PM'] Ya know... I hate to say it but I'm really beginning to hate these threads. I want the election to be over already.... [/quote]
me too


*runs to open mic*

[MorphRC]

[quote name='dUSt' date='Aug 7 2004, 02:25 AM'] And just to remind AnomilE, most of the questions I've raised have been left unanswered. Thanks. [/quote]
Yeah. Same Here...