ironmonk Posted August 3, 2004 Share Posted August 3, 2004 (edited) [quote]Ironmonk - All Roman Catholics are wrong about what the Bible teaches. Think for yourself. [/quote] Funny... How can the Catholic Church be wrong when it was the Catholic Church that was there. [b]Prove it:[/b] [b]1.. [/b]Prove the the Catholic Church teaching is wrong with the Bible, [u]by posting links to the parts of the Catechism [/u][b]and [/b][u]quoting verses in the bible[/u]...here is the link to the Catechism [b] [url="http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/entiretoc1.htm"]http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/entiretoc1.htm[/url][/b] [b]2..[/b] For you to find writings from the First Christians, before 500 AD to show that the Catholic Church was not the Church that Christ built. These are the writings: [url="http://www.logos.com/products/details/518"]http://www.logos.com/products/details/518[/url] You can find the very same writings for free here: [url="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/"]http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/[/url] You keep saying it's wrong, but you haven't been able to prove anything except that your personal beliefs about Scripture are different than what the Church teaches... if your beliefs where true, why would you have to attack the Catholic Church? You accept the differences of all the other thousands of protestant beliefs, but not the Catholic beliefs? That just doesn't make sense. If you accept any other prot beliefs as a possibility of being right, then you must accept that the Catholic Church could be right. How can the whole protestant world be truthful when Christ said the Church would be guided in all truth, the teachings of each protestant church contradict one another... Truth cannot contradict truth. There is only one faith, not two. So, if you are so wise to the bible and where there when it was written or have studied the 19,000 pages of writings from the Christians that were around spreading the Word of God before the NT came to be... then please, save us from the Catholic Church if it's wrong, show us how it's wrong. And I ask that you stick to ONE topic/point at a time, and stay on the topic until everything is answered and you provide proof. God Bless, ironmonk Edited August 3, 2004 by ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatholicCrusader Posted August 3, 2004 Share Posted August 3, 2004 (edited) [color=red]edited for content:Negative Criticism of Other Religions- a post or comment that negatively criticizes (as opposed to constructively criticizes) a different religion in a way that is harmful to open ecumenical dialogue. [/color] Edited August 4, 2004 by cmotherofpirl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted August 4, 2004 Author Share Posted August 4, 2004 Everyone please help me keep this topic on track by not posting things that are not directly related to the topic which is chosen by Icthus. Icthus, will you answer my post, or change the topic? Surely if you are correct about the Catholic Church being wrong on the bible, you'll be able to show where the Catholic Church is wrong with the bible, what the Catholic Church says (CCC), and what the first Christians taught before 500 AD (since we didn't have the NT as Scripture until around 400 AD). I'll suggest a few ideas for the first topic to cover:[list] [*]Confession [*]Baptism [*]Holy Orders [*]Confirmation [*]Purgatory [*]Heaven [*]Hell [*]The Trinity [*]One Faith [*]Anointing of the Sick [*]Holy Water [*]Blessings [*]Holy Oil [*]Hail Mary [*]Prayers to Saints [*]Mary, Queen of Heaven [*]Mary, Mother of God [*]Mary, Ever Virgin [*]Primacy of Peter [*]Apostolic Succession [*]Birth Control [*]Abortion [*]Celibacy [*]Word of God = Oral + Written [*]Infallibility [*]Deuterocanon [*]Justification [*]The Real Pressence [/list] God Bless, ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTHUS Posted August 4, 2004 Share Posted August 4, 2004 Ironmonk, my sig is a retort to the arrogance displayed in yours. I could very well ask you for a point-by-point refutation of the Thirty-nine Articles or the Westminster Confession, but I won't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted August 4, 2004 Author Share Posted August 4, 2004 (edited) [quote name='ICTHUS' date='Aug 4 2004, 12:53 AM'] Ironmonk, my sig is a retort to the arrogance displayed in yours. I could very well ask you for a point-by-point refutation of the Thirty-nine Articles or the Westminster Confession, but I won't. [/quote] I'm not attacking them... why should I... they were not first, and not taught by people from NT biblical times... 33 AD - 500 AD. Also, I did point out errors in them already to you... one error is to many and makes them null and void. I believe the same thing about the Catholic Church teachings... if you can show me one error in faith or morals and show me the true Church, I will believe the Catholic Church to be null and void. You have attacked the Church, you continue to attack it, you say that you were Catholic... then you should be able to show us what proved the Catholic Church wrong with the proper way to judge it - with it's own writings, and the references to the first Christians that spread the Word of God, the trustworthy men taught by the Apostles. It's not just your sig... it's you claiming the Church is wrong on so many of my posts and failing to show any evidence that it is wrong. Numerous times you have contacted me about things you found on anti-Catholic websites (I'm sure I'm not the only one you contacted)... I answered fully, and you never replied or were able to show their rebut, you simply seemed Catholic again (On PM anyway)... that seems to last a couple months, then you'd come across another dilema from another anti-Catholic site... only this time, you've rejected the men sent by Christ. If they were really your friends, why would they sit and constantly argue with you about the teachings of the Church? When they accept numerous prot churches - they accept them because they think that they might be right... which means they think they might be wrong.... If they accept more than one faith, what right have they to attack the Church? None, accept it's the only way they can make their own belief look better. It's much like the school yard bully senario, the bully being the anti-Catholics... the bully is jealous, and accepts other bullies with open arms, but when they see a kid that has what they don't, they gang up on the poor kid (The Catholic Church). The Catholic Church has unity of One Faith... not two. The dissentions of the heretics proves the Catholic Church true (St. Augustine, City of God, Book 18, Chapter 51) Why do so many anti-Catholics have conflicting facts about the Catholic Church? Do you think that St. Augustine might know a little something about Christ's Way? He was involved in the Canonization of the NT. Doesn't it make sense that a student of St. John the Apostle might know a little something about Christ's Way? (St. Ignatius of Antioch) Doesn't it make sense that a Bishop ordained by St. Peter, might know a little something about Christ's Way? (Pope Clement I) Doesn't it make sense that people that the Apostles taught might know a little something about Christ's Way, and the people that they taught - all of the same group? (St. Irenaeus, Eusebius of Caesarea, Hermas, Dionysius of Corinth, Polycarp of Smyrna, Justin Martyr, Tertullian, St. Augustine, etc...) And if it doesn't make sense... how else did people learn of Christ when we didn't have the New Testament until around 400 AD? How else did people learn of Christ until they could learn to read and the invention of the printing press? How else did people learn of Christ and get a bible before the printing press? Was it all the Catholic monestaries which painstakingly copied thousands of bibles by hand over the years, or did the bibles fall from Heaven? What other group could possibly could be written about in the following verses - started in 33 AD, teach the same Morals and Faith as the First Christians, and have One Faith.... [b]John 14:16[/b] [color=red]And I will ask the Father, and he will give you [u]another Advocate to be with you always,[/u] [/color] [b]17 [/b][color=red][b]the Spirit of truth[/b], which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it, because it remains with you, and will be in you.[/color] ... [b]26 [/b] [color=red]The Advocate, the holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name--[u]he will teach you everything [/u]and remind you of all that (I) told you. [/color] How could the group learn or discern what books belonged in the bible to be the Word of God without the Holy Spirit guiding them? Where did they loose the Holy Spirit? If they did loose the Holy Spirit, then did Jesus lie or was He wrong? If He did lie or was wrong that would mean that Jesus is not God and that there is no God, because Jesus did say that the Advocate would be with the group always. [b]1 Tim 3:15[/b] But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth. St. Paul tells us that the Church is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth... then how can the Church be more than one faith? Truth cannot contradict Truth. What Church is the Church that is the Church of the Living God? [b]Luke 10:16[/b] "[color=red]He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me[/color]" Jesus tells the Apostles (the very first Christians) that whoever hears them, hears Christ. Can Christ be wrong about anything? So, the Church established by Christ that Christ promised to guide and would never be overcome must be infallible about Faith and Morals. Which Church is infallible and guided by God? Which Church had the Authority to give us the Bible? Either the Church that gave us the Bible is still guided by God, or there never was a God. Because any contradiction says that Christ is wrong or a liar, which if Christ is God, then He will not be wrong, and will not be a liar. [b]2 Timoty 3:14[/b] But you, [u][b]remain faithful to what you have learned and believed, because you know from whom you learned it[/b][/u], Ok... Who did I learn (1) if from? Who did they learn (2) it from? Who did they learn (3) it from? And who did they learn (4) it from? and so on.... until I get to the first century. That is who I should listen to. "We are compelled to concede to the Papists that they have the Word of God, that we received it from them, and that without them we should have no knowledge of it at all." ~ Martin Luther, Commentary on St. John Hmmm... Where did Luther learn about Christ? Hmmm... Luther was a Catholic Priest.... what does that mean since we are to remain faithful to what we have learned because from whom we learned it? Was Luther faithful to what he learned? Hmmm... Calvin... Where did Calvin learn of Christ? Hmmm... His father worked as a lay administrator in the service of the local bishop, sent him to the University of Paris in 1523 to be educated for the priesthood but later decided that he should be a lawyer.... hmmm.... So Calvin also learned about Christ from the Catholic Church, but became a lawyer? Then started a religion? Sounds like a money making scam to me. "From whom did he learn it?" Was Calvin Faithful to what he learned? [b]1 Corin 11:2[/b] I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold fast to the traditions, just as I handed them on to you. What traditions have been handed on? Gotta go back to 33 AD and start there to know. [b]St. Matt 16:18[/b] "[color=red]And so I say to you, you are Peter (Kephas), and upon this rock (Kephas) I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.[/color]" [b]19 [/b][color=red]I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.[/color]" [b]John 21:15 [/b] When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "[color=red]Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?[/color]" He said to him, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you." He said to him, "[color=red]Feed my lambs.[/color]" Christ said that the Church was built on Peter and would never be overcome. This makes our job a little easier because we can cross off all churches that don't claim that they were built on Peter. Where does that leave us? Or do you want to pick one point and let's dialog about it? God Bless, ironmonk Edited August 4, 2004 by ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted August 4, 2004 Share Posted August 4, 2004 also: to proove Catholocism wrong one only needs to proove one of her doctrines wrong. that is why the challenge cannot be switched around to protestant teaching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorphRC Posted August 5, 2004 Share Posted August 5, 2004 Ict. Why dont you try reading the Epistle of Clement I, and St. Ignatius of Antioch? THey are both first century documents. Also try the Didache. You will notice one word written by the apostles that will stick out. Starts with E. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna Posted August 6, 2004 Share Posted August 6, 2004 ICHTHUS, I encourage you to take IronMonk's challenge. What do you have to lose? Nothing ~ and everything to gain. I'm sorry that you've exchanged the Truth for a lie. You're an extremely bright young man, but intellectual pride has caused many men to fall. It is hard for you to kick against the goad. Come home. Pax Christi. <>< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorphRC Posted August 6, 2004 Share Posted August 6, 2004 Ditto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted August 6, 2004 Author Share Posted August 6, 2004 (edited) Icthus, please don't forget about this thread. And I'm sorry I fogot to finish the thread that I started back in May that I sent to you regarding a few of the points you wanted answered: [url="http://www.moraltruth.com/mtbbs/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=158"]http://www.moraltruth.com/mtbbs/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=158[/url] I started one here also: [url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=17328"]http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=17328[/url] God Bless, ironmonk Edited August 6, 2004 by ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crusader_4 Posted August 8, 2004 Share Posted August 8, 2004 Ironmonk Great defender of the Truth!! well put man...(one of the convicnting arguments that helped to get me converted a while back!!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorphRC Posted August 8, 2004 Share Posted August 8, 2004 One Simple Defence would be. 1 Catholic Church 50000 Protestant Churches 3 Million Non-Denominational Ministries 2000 Sects and Cults. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelFilo Posted August 8, 2004 Share Posted August 8, 2004 Oh my... Oh my... Oh my... The truth in 4 lines. God bless, Mikey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorphRC Posted August 8, 2004 Share Posted August 8, 2004 (edited) ... Edited August 8, 2004 by MorphRC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelFilo Posted August 8, 2004 Share Posted August 8, 2004 You edited your 3 little dots. God bless, Mikey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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