God Loves Us All

[Christ-Follower]

I am a non-denominational christian and I don't understand why different denominations feel so inclined to "convert" members of other denominations. Isn't it more important to love our brothers and sisters in Christ than to bicker with them relentlessly. I do understand there are many differences between Catholics and Protestants, but I highly doubt, if Jesus were here and alive today he would even acknowledge denominational borders. What it really comes down to is do you follow Jesus Christ or don't you? Also remeber, "The righteous live by faith", not understanding. If we don't understand our brother's beliefs that doesn't mean he's wrong, if we have faith in God, he will cast our worrys aside and allow us to worship together with all our fellow christians.

[PedroX]

Dear Follower,

It is indeed important to love our brothers and sisters in Christ. It is also important to follow the truth of Christ. Unfortunately, your post falls apart at this point, for the fullness of truth is found only in the Catholic Church.

May God bless you on your journey.

peace...

[Tora-Musume]

[quote name='PedroX' date='Aug 2 2004, 11:33 PM']
It is indeed important to love our brothers and sisters in Christ. It is also important to follow the truth of Christ. Unfortunately, your post falls apart at this point, for the fullness of truth is found only in the Catholic Church.

[/quote]
I don't think that the fullness of truth is ONLY found in the Catholic Church. You can find truth in music, a work of art, an entity who reaches out to give you a helping hand, books, etc. The proper inspiration at the proper time.

[Christ-Follower]

In response to PedroX,

I don't have any problems with the Catholics church. I know that many Catholics are humble servants of the Lord, but how can you say that you are 100% correct about everything when you were given only a simple human mind to comprehend God? I would never say I am 100% correct about anything, except that God is 100% correct. Don't you agree that it sounds a little foolish to boast about your beliefs, the Bible does say not to boast in one's self, but instead boast in the Lord alone. Technically speaking your beliefs are yours alone, not God's beliefs, so how can you boast in them?

Edited August 3, 2004 by Christ-Follower

[Saint...Someday :)]

[quote name='Christ-Follower' date='Aug 2 2004, 11:54 PM']How can you say that you are 100% correct about everything when you were given only a simple human mind to comprehend God?[/quote]
Hi Christ Follower,

It is true that we are given simple human minds, which are limited by the gifts that God gives us for comprehending Him. However, our beliefs are not humanly-concocted, but inspired by the Holy Spirit working through the Church. It is the same with the Bible--human writers, and thus human minds, but inspired by the Holy Spirit.

The Church claims that all truth can be found within her, but this does not mean that there are not parts of the truth in other churches (or in art, music, as someone stated above). The Church states that the fullness of the truth can be found in her teachings, which is what Catholics believe.

The fundamental question that you are asking is really regarding authority. The Church, by way of Jesus giving Peter the keys to the kingdom and claiming that 'upon this rock I will build my Church', says that she has the authority to contain and explain all truth.

So no, we as humans can't do anything, but God can!

[Christina]

1 Tim 3:15 says it all...

[i]But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, [b]which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.[/b] [/i]

[phatcatholic]

christ-follower,

i would like to comment on both of your posts.

[quote]I am a non-denominational christian and I don't understand why different denominations feel so inclined to "convert" members of other denominations.  Isn't it more important to love our brothers and sisters in Christ than to bicker with them relentlessly.[/quote]
first off, i would assert that the conversion process need not necessarily contain relentless bickering. if we "speak the truth w/ love" and ground our dialogue in the foundation of charity, then it won't be bickering, and it won't be relentless.

secondly, the work of conversion is not actually ours, but instead the work of the grace of Christ. all we can do is explain the truths of Catholicism to people who don't understand and defend these truths against those who wish to attack them. God will take care of the rest.

thirdly, it is b/c we love our "brothers and sisters and Christ" that we share the truths of Catholicism w/ them. we wish for them to have the fullness of Truth that we have received. it is essentially one of the greatest gifts a Catholic can give another person.

[quote]I do understand there are many differences between Catholics and Protestants, but I highly doubt, if Jesus were here and alive today he would even acknowledge denominational borders.[/quote]
indeed, all divisions and fallacies collapse in the presence of Truth. it is up to His Church to spread truth throughout the world and play our own part in breaking down the walls of division and heresy until Jesus Christ comes again and realizes this mission more perfectly.

[quote]What it really comes down to is do you follow Jesus Christ or don't you? [/quote]
AMEN! unfortunately, it is not that simple, for Christians define what it means to "follow Jesus Christ" in many ways. the bottom line is that there is a right and a wrong way to do so. we fight for true worship in the Spirit, in all the ways Jesus calls us to worship Him. we cannot compromise. that means worshipping Him in the Holy Eucharist, in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, through our praying of the Rosary, and through our humble submission to His Most Holy Church (do you follow Jesus Christ in these ways?). i cannot condone another man's form of worship--even if he feels he is truly worshipping Christ--if his worship is contrary to Catholic teaching. at the same time, even if you worship Christ validly, i must impress upon you the other "Catholic" ways, for these too are important, and required of us by Our Lord and Savior.

[quote]Also remeber, "The righteous live by faith", not understanding.  If we don't understand our brother's beliefs that doesn't mean he's wrong, if we have faith in God, he will cast our worrys aside and allow us to worship together with all our fellow christians.[/quote]
indeed, it was the will of Christ that they may be one, as He and the Father are one. however, we have a long way to go to achieve this end. i say we come closer to this end every time we defend Truth and help others grow closer to Christ through His Holy Catholic Church.

[quote]I don't have any problems with the Catholics church. I know that many Catholics are humble servants of the Lord, but how can you say that you are 100% correct about everything when you were given only a simple human mind to comprehend God?[/quote]
the 100% correctness of His Church does not depend upon our ability to comprehend. its simply logical that His Truths must be located somewhere, in their fullness, or we would have no unfailing guide to unite us to Him, we would all be living w/ half-truths and error. we must be certain that what we believe about God and how we practice these beliefs are w/o error, or we would have no sure way to come to Him. plus, it would be rather incompetent of Our Father to promise to us the Kingdom of Heaven, yet give us no unfailing way to get there.

so, we ask ourselves, where does the Truth of God exist in its fullness? all the evidence points us towards the Catholic Church.

[quote]I would never say I am 100% correct about anything, except that God is 100% correct. Don't you agree that it sounds a little foolish to boast about your beliefs, the Bible does say not to boast in one's self, but instead boast in the Lord alone. Technically speaking your beliefs are yours alone, not God's beliefs, so how can you boast in them?[/quote]
but these are not our beliefs. we have not created them. we have not earned them. we don't even deserve them. they are the Truths of Jesus Christ handed on to and perserved by the Apostles and their successors. besides God's grace and my own life, Catholicism is quite frankly the greatest gift i have ever received.

also, b/c they are not ours but God's, when we boast of the fullness of Truth we do in fact boast in the Lord. we acknowledge that w/in His Church is the fullness of Truth. we have Truth only b/c He has given it to us. we know the path to heaven only b/c he has laid it out before us. we are wise in his ways only b/c he is wise. in fact, even his foolishness is wiser then our most profound insight. so our boasting is in the Lord, b/c of his greatness and b/c of the Spirit of Truth he has given us.

i acknowledge that these are rather gutsy claims i am making. but, there must be one Church who can honestly and validly claim to contian the fullness of Truth--or all we have are "somewhat true" and "somewhat certain" guides to the Lord. all we would have our "somewhat true" doctrines and "somewhat certain" ways of worshipping the Lord. our salvation is so important that we cannot settle for such uncertainty.

i hope this helps.

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[Christ-Follower]

Saint, I agree with all of your statement.

But getting back to the main topic, why is it even necessary to divide God's church? Don't we as Christians all rest in the same God? So why is it we cannot trust God to resolve our differences? Why can't we lay our burdens of arguements and anger down before the Lord and unite in worshiping him? That is the question I'm really asking.

Edited August 3, 2004 by Christ-Follower

[Saint...Someday :)]

[quote name='Christ-Follower' date='Aug 3 2004, 12:43 AM'] Why is it even necessary to divide God's church?  Don't we as Christians all rest in the same God?  So why is it we cannot trust God to resolve our differences?  Why can't we lay out burdens of arguements and anger down before the Lord and unite in worshiping him? [/quote]
Thanks, Christ Follower,

The divisions within the Church, the Body of Christ, was forseen by Jesus the garden of gethsemane (sp?), when He prayed that we would be one. For the first 1500 years after that, the Church was one; however, we all know how that played out after Martin Luther nailed his 95 theses to the door of the Wittenburg Cathedral. While the divisions do seem man-made, they are truly caused by Satan, provoking the sin of pride. There is only one Church that claims to have the fullness of truth, of course, the Catholic one.

As Christians, we do have much in common. Catholics and non-Catholic Christians do believe that Jesus was the Son of God, He died for our sins so that we could be able to have eternal life in Heaven.

It's not that we don't trust God to resolve our differences, but as Catholics (as all Christians, really), we are called to spread the Gospel to all the nations. In doing so, we naturally find contradiction with those we are meeting...starting in our own homes, towns, families even. These differences should be a way of starting a dialogue, not bickering at PhatCatholic stated. I hope that you haven't had bickering from a Catholic! I also hope that you do not perceive this post as hostile or angry--far from it. Keep the questions coming.

The Catholic Faith is a huge gift I received as an infant. It amazes me to this day that God would give me such a gift. It also lays the burden of argument on me to communicate that Faith in truth and love. It also imposes on me a set of beliefs that, while some are commonly held by all Christians, others are not. The greatest act of worship that Catholics have is the Mass, where we come together as the family of God to partake in the Body and Blood of Jesus. Any Christian can attend the Mass; attendance is not restricted. That said, receiving the Body and Blood of Christ when one does not believe that it is truly Him they are receiving, necessarily makes a distinction between Catholics and non-Catholic Christians.

When I was in college, I was part of a praise-and-worship group that was comprised of Christians of all stripes, Catholics included. While it was great to be together, united in praise of Him, it also pointed to me the need to share this great gift of the Catholic Faith with those who already believed in God. I wanted the best for them, the fullness of what they could have, and that is the Catholic faith.

Hope that answers your question!

Edited August 3, 2004 by Saint...Someday :)

[Christ-Follower]

phatcatholic

I'm astounded by how much you and me are alike in our beliefs. I basicly belief everything you said with the exception of a few minor things.

Forgive me if I don't see the truth of the Lord the same way you do but I was recently transformed by God and it was done with the help of my church, which is non-denominational (60% former catholics in attendance). At my church, we talk only about the fundementals of Christ and ignore many of the rituals that are commomplace in the Catholic church. We still practice holy communion, but the purpose of our church is primarily to spread the gospel of Christ to non-believers. I have seen so many souls transformed by Jesus at my church, that it would be impossible for me to agree that the Catholic church is the only place to find the truth of God. I know this happens in all churches (including the Catholic church) so how can the truth be limited to just one?

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='Christ-Follower' date='Aug 3 2004, 12:43 AM'] Saint, I agree with all of your statement.

But getting back to the main topic, why is it even necessary to divide God's church? Don't we as Christians all rest in the same God? So why is it we cannot trust God to resolve our differences? Why can't we lay out burdens of arguements and anger down before the Lord and unite in worshiping him? That is the question I'm really asking. [/quote]
christ-follower,

Catholics abhor division. before the protestant reformation, there was no such division as that which we live in today. we spread and defend Catholicism for the sole purpose of uniting the Body of Christ as Jesus himself willed for us.

we do trust that God will resolve our differences. all heresy and division will collapse eventually. catholics just work to realize this mission in the world until Jesus Christ comes again and realizes it more fully.

as for laying down our arguments and uniting in worship, how can this be done when the Truth of God is so important and "uniting in worship" would mean praising God and believing things about Him that are not true? although what you are saying sounds nice and ecumenical, we cannot compromise Truth and accept error all for the sake of unity. unity comes not when we condone falshood, but when all people accept Truth.

[i][b]that [/b][/i]is what Catholics work for.

i hope this helps

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[Christ-Follower]

Saint,

Your response clarified many things for me, but still you need to explain why the Catholic church is the only "true" church. Cannot many churches be the same, even if there are errors?

[Saint...Someday :)]

Hi Christ-follower,

Could you clarify what you mean by "can all churches be the same"?

Thanks!
SS

[phatcatholic]

christ-follower,

we seem to be posting at the same time, so i hope that we can keep track of each other!

i'm happy to hear that we already agree on many things. this will work greatly towards making our dialogue w/ each other as fruitful as possible.

first, i would like to clarify that Catholics do ackowledge that truth exists in other Christian denominations. truth does not reside solely in the Catholic Church. however, only in the Catholic Church does it reside [i][b]in its fullness[/b][/i]. by this i mean that there are no Catholic doctrines that are in error, while error does exist in other denominations. i do not discredit the fact that many have indeed turned to Christ through your church. but, i assert that the Catholic Church is the more sure and perfect way.

you also spoke of focusing only on the fundamentals and ignoring the "rituals" that you probably feel aren't as important. to this i say, how does one define an "important" belief or practice from an "unnecessary" one? the bible is nowhere outlined in such a way as to assert, "well, u could believe this if u wanted to, but u don't have to." everything taught by Jesus Christ and His Apostles is important, or it wouldn't be found in His Word.

secondly, all the beliefs and practices of Christianity are so interconnected that it is impossible to separate the "necessary" from the "unnecessary" if we take a hard look at it. show me an unnecessary belief or practice and i will show you how it is in fact important to our worship of God.

i hope this helps and i pray that you will not be turned away by my particular zeal regarding this issue.

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[Christ-Follower]

I mean to say that the holy church of God is not one denomination but all of Christianity, even the ones who unfortunatly have strayed off God's path. His church is his people. And not only Catholics are God's people.