Dear God

[Guest JeffCR07]

[quote]Those who die with mortal sin descend immediately into Hell (true, without exceptions). Those who die with original sin only descend immediately into Hell to be punished with different punishments [from the damned who die with mortal sin] (true, with exceptions?). How can this be true? If the Church groups the two (mortal sin and original sin only) together, who are we to say differently? I am sure no one would say "God can save a person in mortal sin from Hell if he chooses", but (almost) everyone says "God can save a person with original sin only from Hell." What is the basis for this (other than false speculative theology)? God bless.[/quote]

ahh, Adam, I think I see where you and I are miscommunicating. Please let me make myself clearer. I am not arguing with the proposition that you have stated above, it is as clear as day, as sensible, and, more important than either of the two, it is taught infallibly by the Church.

The point that I was trying to make - albeit ineloquently - was on a different note entirely, so, if you would bear with me, I will try my best to make myself more clear this time around.

Let's take the case of mortal sin. I believe, as I must if I am to claim to be a catholic, that any individual who dies in a state of mortal sin will immediately go to hell. There is no question whatsoever, nor is there any debate.

But I know that any matured human being with faith is capable of making an act of perfect contrition that stems from true charity and love of God. The Church teaches that any individual who makes a perfect act of contrition before they die can be forgiven of their mortal sin and attain heaven.

My point is this: there is no way for me to know (or, it is remarkably difficult for me to know) whether or not an individual, in the instant before he died, did or did not make such an act of contrition. As a result, I can hope in the mercy of God for the soul of that person, even if I know that there was a mortal sin on his/her soul that he/she did not get a chance to confess.

Now, with regards to unbaptised infants, my argument is slightly different, but runs along generally the same lines.

We know that/how a person with reason, etc, can attain salvation. We are completely unaware, though, of the mechanics of salvation (if they even exist) for someone without reason, or even, perhaps, a sense of themself, such as the unborn or newborn.

We know that a rational act of contrition is necessary for a man with reason, but we do not know whether or not it is necessary for a child without it. Thus, I merely am trying to admit that I do not know whether God has a method by which the unborn/unbaptised can, through the merits of Christ, be cleansed of Original Sin.

My assertion was that, by virtue of the fact that we have no way of knowing whether or not Original Sin can be removed before (as in the case of the person in a state of mortal sin) we can have hope.

I pray that I was more clear this time around. If you need me to explain further, or have any disagreements, please feel free to respond. Thanks!

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff

*PS, upon re-reading this post, one might think that I am asserting a "salvation through intellect" doctrine. This is not what I am trying to do at all, nor is it what I think, I am merely illustrating that those capable of making an act of contrition must do so.

[amarkich]

[quote]Are we all not all born with a desire to go to God? God being a fair judge would take into consideration the mental capacity of an unborn baby, and also take into consideration the will of the child.[/quote]

Michael, you seem to be asserting that original sin does not exist (or the effects of original sin do not exist) insofar as you claim that the "innate desire" for God in all men somehow does (or can) wipe out original sin. This is false. Another thing, if we know that “God can do anything”, why can he not save those in mortal sin?

[quote]While we have sufficient proof that mortal sinners are going to hell, I cannot say the same for those babies who are unborn and have original sin.[/quote]

We know absolutely that those who die with mortal sin descend immediately into Hell (you seem to believe this although you do not say it as definitively). We know absolutely that those who die with original sin only descend immediately into Hell (you deny this by saying that you do not believe that "babies who are unborn and have original sin" go to Hell). This is at least material heresy. Now that you see what the Church teaches (I will post the decrees again so there is no confusion), you must accept it without falling in to actual heresy. By the way, if one believes in 'Baptism' of Desire and Blood (which are not defined [i]Ex Cathedra[/i], but this is a completely different argument which I believe is being argued on another thread), one must assert that the 'Baptism' of Blood is a death for the Church, not only for Christ (because of the decree of the Council of Florence: "even if a man pour out his blood for the name of Christ, he cannot be saved unless he persevere within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church"), and one must believe that the desire for Baptism is explicit. A baby could not have a 'Baptism' of Desire because he has no will to die for anything let alone the Church. A baby cannot have desire for Baptism because he does not know Baptism. This is not a discussion of 'Baptism' of Blood and Desire at all. Those do not apply in this case because the Church has already spoken concerning the souls that die with original sin only. You must either change your argument to that of Jeff, asserting that those who die with original sin only descend into Hell (but hoping that the original sin is remitted somehow) or simply reject the idea altogether.

Jeff, I understand now. The previous misunderstanding was not a fault of your lack of eloquence but my lack of comprehension. In any event, your argument would suffice for a reason to hope, but is there anything which would logically lead one to the conclusion that God would provide some means of salvation to one who has not merited it. Original sin does not beaver dam one to the fires of Hell (necessarily) but it certainly is not a pass to Heaven. In any event, since you have said that Limbo is the most logical, I suppose the discussion is moot since there is no reason to speculate as to possibilities for the babies if we both end at the same conclusion anyway. My only question is this: where does the Church teach that “perfect contrition” suffices for Confession, and is this term found anywhere in any Church decree? I have been told that “perfect contrition” suffices for Confession, but I have never actually been provided any information to back up this claim. I suppose that I have never really thought much of it until recently, but I have yet to read anything authoritative or anything at all from the Pope (even something which is not authoritative) that would define or support “perfect contrition.” I am unsure of whether or not I believe something like this if it is not a doctrine of the Faith and if it is not taught by any of the Fathers, Popes, etc. I have never read anything about this from any authoritative source, and I would appreciate if you would pass on some of your sources on the subject if you have any. God bless.

[Guest JeffCR07]

Adam, I really need to go to sleep, but I promise that tomorrow I will PM phatcatholic (I'm sure he knows where it is) and get you the official teaching on perfect contrition. God Bless!

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff

[ICTHUS]

To add the viewpoint of the Covenantal Padeobaptist here - God takes the sign of His Covenant *very* seriously. As such, infants who die having been baptised, having been marked with the seal of the Covenant, though not regenerate, may be regenerated by God when they die, thus allowing them entrance into Heaven.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='amarkich' date='Aug 3 2004, 11:48 PM']
Michael, you seem to be asserting that original sin does not exist (or the effects of original sin do not exist) insofar as you claim that the "innate desire" for God in all men somehow does (or can) wipe out original sin. This is false. Another thing, if we know that “God can do anything”, why can he not save those in mortal sin?



We know absolutely that those who die with mortal sin descend immediately into Hell (you seem to believe this although you do not say it as definitively). We know absolutely that those who die with original sin only descend immediately into Hell (you deny this by saying that you do not believe that "babies who are unborn and have original sin" go to Hell). This is at least material heresy. Now that you see what the Church teaches (I will post the decrees again so there is no confusion), you must accept it without falling in to actual heresy. By the way, if one believes in 'Baptism' of Desire and Blood (which are not defined [i]Ex Cathedra[/i], but this is a completely different argument which I believe is being argued on another thread), one must assert that the 'Baptism' of Blood is a death for the Church, not only for Christ (because of the decree of the Council of Florence: "even if a man pour out his blood for the name of Christ, he cannot be saved unless he persevere within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church"), and one must believe that the desire for Baptism is explicit. A baby could not have a 'Baptism' of Desire because he has no will to die for anything let alone the Church. A baby cannot have desire for Baptism because he does not know Baptism. This is not a discussion of 'Baptism' of Blood and Desire at all. Those do not apply in this case because the Church has already spoken concerning the souls that die with original sin only. You must either change your argument to that of Jeff, asserting that those who die with original sin only descend into Hell (but hoping that the original sin is remitted somehow) or simply reject the idea altogether.

Jeff, I understand now. The previous misunderstanding was not a fault of your lack of eloquence but my lack of comprehension. In any event, your argument would suffice for a reason to hope, but is there anything which would logically lead one to the conclusion that God would provide some means of salvation to one who has not merited it. Original sin does not beaver dam one to the fires of Hell (necessarily) but it certainly is not a pass to Heaven. In any event, since you have said that Limbo is the most logical, I suppose the discussion is moot since there is no reason to speculate as to possibilities for the babies if we both end at the same conclusion anyway. My only question is this: where does the Church teach that “perfect contrition” suffices for Confession, and is this term found anywhere in any Church decree? I have been told that “perfect contrition” suffices for Confession, but I have never actually been provided any information to back up this claim. I suppose that I have never really thought much of it until recently, but I have yet to read anything authoritative or anything at all from the Pope (even something which is not authoritative) that would define or support “perfect contrition.” I am unsure of whether or not I believe something like this if it is not a doctrine of the Faith and if it is not taught by any of the Fathers, Popes, etc. I have never read anything about this from any authoritative source, and I would appreciate if you would pass on some of your sources on the subject if you have any. God bless. [/quote]
CCC1452 When it arises from a love by which God is loved above all else, contrition is called "perfect" (contrition of charity). Such contrition remits venial sins; it also obtains forgiveness of mortal sins if it includes the firm resolution to have recourse to sacramental confession as soon as possible. 51
Notes:

51 Cf. Council of Trent (1551): DS 1677.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' date='Aug 3 2004, 11:06 AM'] When an egg is conceived it makes its way up the tube to be implanted. Half of all conceived eggs do not make this journey succesffully. [/quote]
Just out of curiousity, are you saying that scientific studies have shown the "half of all conceived eggs" assertion to be true?

My understanding was this is just scientific speculation. If you've got any NIH or similar links, I'd be grateful if you would share them.

I'm especially interested in how one could design an experiment to measure survival rates before implantation.

Thanks!

[Aloysius]

yeah seriously, it takes how long before they even know there's been a conception so how the heck do they know what's goin on prior to that point where they discover it!??!!

[MorphRC]

I remember reading some articles, that said the Church use to teach unbaptized babies go to hell or purgatory.

[Guest JeffCR07]

Morph, the Church has never taught that "unbaptized babies go to hell or purgatory," it has only speculated as to their fate. My discussion with Amarkich above is a wonderful example of such "speculative theology" as the answer has not been divinely revealed.

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff

[Guest JeffCR07]

Adam, I was going to PM you, but I vaguely remember you saying that you could not receive PM's so I am typing this here. If I am wrong about the PM thing, please tell me.

From the COUNCIL OF TRENT SIXTH SESSION celebrated on the thirteenth day of January, 1547; Chapter XIV:

[quote]Hence, it must be taught that the repentance of a Christian after his fall is very different from that at his baptism, and that it includes not only a determination to avoid sins and a hatred of them, or a contrite and humble heart,[85] but also the sacramental confession of those sins, [b]at least in desire[/b], to be made in its season, and sacerdotal absolution, as well as satisfaction by fasts, alms, prayers and other devout exercises of the spiritual life, not indeed for the eternal punishment, which is, together with the guilt, remitted either by the sacrament [b]or by the desire of the sacrament[/b], but for the temporal punishment which, as the sacred writings teach, is not always wholly remitted, as is done in baptism, to those who, ungrateful to the grace of God which they have received, have grieved the Holy Ghost[86] and have not feared to violate the temple of God.[87][/quote]

Three entries in the Catechism are (I think) important for clarification:

[quote]1452 When it arises from a love by which God is loved above all else, contrition is called "perfect" (contrition of charity). Such contrition remits venial sins; it also obtains forgiveness of mortal sins if it includes the firm resolution to have recourse to sacramental confession as soon as possible.[/quote]

[quote]1453 The contrition called "imperfect" (or "attrition") is also a gift of God, a prompting of the Holy Spirit. It is born of the consideration of sin's ugliness or the fear of eternal damnation and the other penalties threatening the sinner (contrition of fear). Such a stirring of conscience can initiate an interior process which, under the prompting of grace, will be brought to completion by sacramental absolution. By itself however, imperfect contrition cannot obtain the forgiveness of grave sins, but it disposes one to obtain forgiveness in the sacrament of Penance.[/quote]

Here we have the differentiation between imperfect and perfect contrition, and their varying degrees of efficaciousness (is that a word? lol). So we see that perfect contrition can remove even mortal sins, while imperfect contrition cannot.

[QUOTE]1457 According to the Church's command, "after having attained the age of discretion, each of the faithful is bound by an obligation faithfully to confess serious sins at least once a year." Anyone who is aware of having committed a mortal sin must not receive Holy Communion, even if he experiences deep contrition, without having first received sacramental absolution, unless he has a grave reason for receiving Communion and there is no possibility of going to confession. Children must go to the sacrament of Penance before receiving Holy Communion for the first time.QUOTE]

It is in this quote, however, that we see that perfect contrition is what is being referred to in the 14th Chapter of Trent's Sixth Session. We see implied that perfect contrition necessitates a desire for the sacrament of confession and so can only be considered a valid remission of sins in grave circumstances (when he is unable to receive confession before his death. If a person has ample time to receive the sacrament, but rather, trusts in his "contrition" as being a [i]substitute[/i] for the sacrament and thus removing its necessity, this contrition is by its nature imperfect and cannot remove mortal sin.

I hope this is what you were looking for!

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff

[Tora-Musume]

Dear GOD,
Why is it that we shall not have other GOD's but you?

Gotta Love Me!

[MichaelFilo]

Because, thats like going up to your mother and going, can Suzy's mom be my biological mother from now on. Your mother would be hurt by such a preposal, and Suzy's mom as being your biological mom may be accepted by everyone, but it doesn't make it true.

Same with fake gods. We leave the real God for whatever we want. While we may accept it and others may too, there is still only your real God, and only Him will there be any answering to.

God bless,

Mikey

[Tora-Musume]

[quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Aug 6 2004, 02:33 AM'] Because, thats like going up to your mother and going, can Suzy's mom be my biological mother from now on. Your mother would be hurt by such a preposal, and Suzy's mom as being your biological mom may be accepted by everyone, but it doesn't make it true.

Same with fake gods. We leave the real God for whatever we want. While we may accept it and others may too, there is still only your real God, and only Him will there be any answering to.

God bless,

Mikey [/quote]
If I found my biological mother, my adopted parents will not be hurt. They are actually helping me.

So you are setting an example meaning that my adopted parents are fake...since they are not my real parents that is.

Gotta Love Me!

[Aloysius]

what if you went up to your adopted parents and said: i want these two statues to be my parents from now on, not you! that's what it'd be like

Pax

[MichaelFilo]

[quote name='Tora-Musume' date='Aug 6 2004, 03:48 AM'] If I found my biological mother, my adopted parents will not be hurt. They are actually helping me.

So you are setting an example meaning that my adopted parents are fake...since they are not my real parents that is.

Gotta Love Me! [/quote]
I used biological in the sense that you are denying your actual mom her title. In the case of parents who adopted you, imagine going over to Suzy's mom and asking her to be your adopted parent from now on. Your adopted parents would care. Aloysius however gives a better example.

God bless,

Mikey