Extra Ecclesia Nulla Salus

[Dave]

[quote name='CatholicCrusader' date='Aug 2 2004, 09:45 PM'] I guess those schismatics are good for something after all!

If he is right about this, is he also right about John Paul II being an "apostate"? [/quote]
1. To whom are you referring as schismatics?

2. Who's "he"? Fr. Cekada or the guy to whom he was writing?

[CatholicCrusader]

[quote name='Dave' date='Aug 2 2004, 09:55 PM'] 1. To whom are you referring as schismatics?

2. Who's "he"? Fr. Cekada or the guy to whom he was writing? [/quote]
Fr. Cekada is a schismatic... he's a sedevecantist (he has written good books on the New Mass, though).

[Dave]

[quote name='CatholicCrusader' date='Aug 2 2004, 09:56 PM'] Fr. Cekada is a schismatic... he's a sedevecantist (he has written good books on the New Mass, though). [/quote]
I didn't realize that. But heck, even a blind hog can find an acorn, as the saying goes.

[Guest JeffCR07]

[quote]I guess those schismatics are good for something after all! 

If he is right about this, is he also right about John Paul II being an "apostate"? [/quote]

hahaha, I dunno about any hogs or acorns, but I've gotta agree with Dave: even schismatics get some things right, they just don't get everything right. lol, and you and I both know that he's wrong about our awesome Holy Father

[amarkich]

didn't log out...

Edited August 4, 2004 by amarkich

[CatholicCrusader]

Yes, he is wrong about the Pope, but I don't know if I would use the adjective awesome to describe him... I can't see him being canonized.

[Guest JeffCR07]

I really think he will be.

[amarkich]

Jeff, it is usually good to support the Pope (whoever he is), but even if one supports the current Pope in his extreme interpretation of the "New Evangelization", what would cause you to think that he would be canonized in light of his apparently scandalous actions and grave problems in the Church (the Priest scandal, just to name one)? If a Pope is to be canonized (and even more so, if he is to be given the title 'Great', which I do not know if you support), he has to succeed in teaching, governing, and sanctifying the faithful. Teaching: we cannot overlook the number of lapsed Catholics and the great number who do not know their faith. Governing: the Priest scandal is enough to cancel this aspect. Sanctifying: are Catholics holier because of him? have Catholics been preserved from heresy or are Catholics indifferent to other religions and accepting of them? It is hard to make a case for any single aspect as being worthy of canonization, but certainly not all three. In any event, we cannot presume God's mercy. Who are we to say he will go to Heaven when he has not even died! (I know that you are not necessarily presuming God's mercy in your belief, but we must realize that canonization is the same as absolutely being in Heaven; we certainly cannot know if he is in Heaven even after he dies unless the Church says it, so we certainly cannot know now)

[Guest JeffCR07]

well, with regards to your three points:

1.) Teachings: There are certainly many lapsed catholics, but I view this as a result more of poor catechisis on the part of the Bishops (especially in the wake of a council!) than of the Holy Father himself. I would point to the diocese of Krakow as an example. When the Holy Father was Bishop there, he instituted an intense catechetical program in order to teach the truths of Vatican II and the diocese is flourishing still today. The same cannot be said of other areas of the world (sadly, like America). Also, I think time will show the Holy Father's encyclicals, and especially his teaching of the Theology of the Body, to be amazing boons to the faithful and the Church as a whole

2.) Governing: The priest scandal would have come to light regardless of who was Pope. Remember, the majority of these scandals actually occured many many years ago, before his papacy. Moreover, I think thathis governance of the Church has been superd, especially as it regards striving to make Latin Rite catholics more aware of the other Churches in communion with Rome, as well as working to bring those in schism back into communion.

3.) Sanctifying: When I look at the Church, I do see many liberals, and many radical traditionalists/ schismatics. I see many obstacles to the Church. But what strikes me the most are all the lay movements that are flourishing on account of the Holy Father. I will use the one closest to my own heart: [i]Regnum Christi[/i]. I am a member of RC and I can honestly tell you that the whole movement, organized by the Legionaires of Christ and their founder, Father Maciel, are truly holier people than we would have been without it. Father Maciel will be the first to turn all thanks and praise of things done by and in the movement to the Holy Father, who has supported us and strengthed us. We are not the only movement that he has aided, and I think one need only look at the vibrant faith present in the incredible number of people who attended World Youth Day to know that he is aiding in our sanctification.

Of course I do not presume to call him a Saint yet. I would expect the Magisterium to take a proper amount of time to come to a decision on the matter, I was merely asserting my faith that the Holy Father will persevere in his life of Grace.

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff