Aloysius Posted August 4, 2004 Share Posted August 4, 2004 No, Ratzinger didn't give his opinion of the War but rather clarified that Catholic Doctrine does not require us to agree with the Pope's opinion on specific wars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorphRC Posted August 4, 2004 Share Posted August 4, 2004 (edited) [quote name='Aloysius' date='Aug 4 2004, 03:35 PM'] Cardinal Ratzinger is part of the current magisterium and declares that Catholics can have a variety of opinion about specific wars or the application of the death penalty. Apotheon's posts remain faithful to the magisterium. [/quote] Nah ah. You went against the Pope, who said it was a UNJUST WAR. And now ur trying to use the Church against itself, to support your president. I tried the samething with No Sal Out. The Church. and I got a warning! Edited August 4, 2004 by MorphRC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted August 4, 2004 Share Posted August 4, 2004 I'm not puttin the Church against herself, but showing that the Church teaches we are not bound by the Pope's opinion on a specific war. we are bound by his teaching on what a just war is, but not whether or not this or that war fits those criteria, because to judge that requires knowledge of things outside of the Church's teaching expertice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted August 4, 2004 Share Posted August 4, 2004 To disagree with an opinion of the Pope isn't to go against the Magesterium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorphRC Posted August 4, 2004 Share Posted August 4, 2004 [quote name='Aloysius' date='Aug 4 2004, 03:44 PM'] wow, great mind-reading, you've figured out that he never believed that... too bad the 9/11 commission would disagree with you. [/quote] No. I know the mind of a Oil Tycoon though. Yeah it only took what? 2 years to finally get a commission cause Bush wouldnt allow one! He stalled it for almost 2 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorphRC Posted August 4, 2004 Share Posted August 4, 2004 [quote name='Aloysius' date='Aug 4 2004, 03:45 PM'] No, Ratzinger didn't give his opinion of the War but rather clarified that Catholic Doctrine does not require us to agree with the Pope's opinion on specific wars. [/quote] Everything the Pope says is considered Infallible. If he says, No War. THen theres no war. You cant pick and choose what you like. You taking your Americanism over the Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted August 4, 2004 Share Posted August 4, 2004 Not everything he says is infallible, especially in private opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorphRC Posted August 4, 2004 Share Posted August 4, 2004 [quote name='Aloysius' date='Aug 4 2004, 03:48 PM'] I'm not puttin the Church against herself, but showing that the Church teaches we are not bound by the Pope's opinion on a specific war. we are bound by his teaching on what a just war is, but not whether or not this or that war fits those criteria, because to judge that requires knowledge of things outside of the Church's teaching expertice. [/quote] The Pope said this war IRAQ is unjust. Therefore it doesnt and didnt met the requirements of the Church Hence [b]ILLEGAL[/b] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted August 4, 2004 Share Posted August 4, 2004 Actually, when did he say it was unjust? Circumstances could have changed the justice of the war now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted August 4, 2004 Share Posted August 4, 2004 (edited) then you'll have to accuse Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, Head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, of putting americanism over his catholocism. oh yeah, he's not american. this is Church Teaching-- The Magisterium of the Catholic Church does not have teaching expertice over the nature of terrorist threats, whether or not someone has WMDs, whether or not intelligence that says he does can be trusted, or whether Saddam and Al Quaida have ties. that's simply not an area the Magisterium's Teaching Authority covers, it covers Faith and Morals. Thus a war must have such and such criteria for it to be just is a moral teaching of the Church, but 'Iraq does not fit those criteria' is not a moral teaching of the Church, but a political opinion of Karol Wvoitiwa. ( forgive me if i spelled his name wrong ) Edited August 4, 2004 by Aloysius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorphRC Posted August 4, 2004 Share Posted August 4, 2004 [quote name='qfnol31' date='Aug 4 2004, 03:53 PM'] Not everything he says is infallible, especially in private opinion. [/quote] I know if its public, you cant be like 'Ohh i chose NOT to listen' though. Ive been told off by so many catholics for that..so thats been hammered in..lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted August 4, 2004 Share Posted August 4, 2004 (edited) It's more than we're choosing not to listen. We're discerning that it is a just war through much thought and listening to other members of the Magesterium. Remember, Ratzinger is in the second most powerful office of the Church. Edited August 4, 2004 by qfnol31 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorphRC Posted August 4, 2004 Share Posted August 4, 2004 [b]THE ILLEGAL WAR OF AGGRESSION AGAINST THE SOVEREIGN NATION OF IRAQ[/b] has started today in spite of the superhuman efforts of the Holy Father, the prayers of all true followers of Our Lord, the opposition of the world public opinion and of the vast majority of the governments represented in the U.N.. Iraq is a sovereign, independent nation, just like the dozens of other countries controlled by sanguinary dictators supported by the U.S. all over the world. George Bush and Tony Blair 'have cast off the legitimacy of the United Nations and put the use of force above the rule of law', as President Chirac put it yesterday. In doing so, they have defined the future schedule of the International Criminal Court, which deals with crimes of war, crimes against peace and crimes against humanity. Mr. Milosevic will be happy to introduce them to the prison routine at the appropriate time. Let us pray for the 24 million Iraqis who are being bombed back to the stone age, courtesy of you and me, the American taxpayers - the epitome of savagery, cruelty, greed and irresponsibility fostered by a materialistic society. Let us pray the Almighty Lord to stop the war criminals dead in their tracks, before they bring large scale destruction to Mesopotamia, the land of Abraham and the craddle of the Western Civilization. 'History begins at Sumer', as most civilized people remember... - Michael Olteanu, M.S., Executive Director of Christus Rex, Inc. - 20 March 2003 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorphRC Posted August 4, 2004 Share Posted August 4, 2004 [url="http://www.al-bushra.org/hedchrch/bishop1.html"]http://www.al-bushra.org/hedchrch/bishop1.html[/url] CANTON, Mar 18, 03 (CWNews.com) -- An American Catholic bishop has forbidden his flock from participating or cooperating in military action against Iraq, under pain of mortal sin. Bishop John Michael Botean, the head of the Romanian Catholic eparchy (diocese) of St. George in Canton, Ohio-- which has jurisdiction over all Byzantine-rite Romanian Catholics living in the US-- invoked the full measure of his authority in a Lenten Letter to his people. The bishop declared with "moral certainty" that the proposed attack on Iraq "does not meet even the minimal standards of the Catholic just-war theory." The bishop announced that he "must declare to you, my people, for the sake of your salvation as well as my own, that any direct participation and support of this war against the people of Iraq is objectively grave evil, a matter of mortal sin." Bishop Botean acknowledged that the Catechism of the Catholic Church (2309) identifies public authorities as the final judges of whether military action is justified. But he argued that "the nation-state is never the final arbiter or authority for the Catholic of what is moral." An unjust law or order should not be obeyed, he observed. Writing with obvious emotion, the Romanian Catholic prelate admitted that "I would much prefer to keep silent." And he pointed out to his people: "Never before have I spoken to you in this manner, explicitly exercising the fullness of authority Jesus Christ has given his apostles." However, he said, he felt a moral burden to guide his people. Arguing that a military assault on Iraq does not fit the criteria of the just-war tradition, Bishop Botean concluded in stark terms: "Thus, any killing associated with it is unjustified and, in consequence, unequivocally murder." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorphRC Posted August 4, 2004 Share Posted August 4, 2004 [quote name='qfnol31' date='Aug 4 2004, 04:00 PM'] It's more than we're choosing not to listen. We're discerning that it is a just war through much thought and listening to other members of the Magesterium. Remember, Ratzinger is in the second most powerful office of the Church. [/quote] True. But he doesnt over-ride the Pope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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