What Is Necesssary For Salvation?

[CatholicCrusader]

What do you believe?

[Guest JeffCR07]

If the Catechism and Holy Father teach invincible ignorance and baptism by blood/desire, far be it from me not to humbly accept the teaching with my whole heart and mind!

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff

[phatcatholic]

change the question to "what is [i][b]normatively [/b][/i]necessary" and i choose the first option

[Aloysius]

and besides, that teaching is just the work of a council and magisterium building upon doctrines that have existed in Catholocism through people like Pope Pius XII, St. Thomas Aquinas as well as Christians in the middle ages and Christians in the really early Church.

[Theoketos]

Many of the Choices would not answer the question and many of the choices are repeatitive, but I choose number one becuase that is the best means, and it is the usual means.

[Spriles]

Romans 10:9
If you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.


Acts 16: 30-31
He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved"


John 6: 28-29
Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

[ICTHUS]

That poll didn't give the choice I would have said

"If you confess with your mouth "Jesus is Lord", and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead" you shall be saved. Also, your faith must work in charity (Galatians 5:6), and you must persevere unto the end.

Also, it is necessary to be born (of water, i.e. amniotic fluid) and then born again of the Holy Spirit at regeneration.

[M.SIGGA]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Aug 2 2004, 04:17 PM'] That poll didn't give the choice I would have said

"If you confess with your mouth "Jesus is Lord", and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead" you shall be saved. Also, your faith must work in charity (Galatians 5:6), and you must persevere unto the end.

Also, it is necessary to be born (of water, i.e. amniotic fluid) and then born again of the Holy Spirit at regeneration. [/quote]
This is part of the Catholic Faith, it's just not picked out and set aside, ignoring the rest of the Bible.

[amarkich]

ICHTUS, that is a good joke, but I do not think anyone would believe something so outlandish regarding the amniotic fluid birth. I believe you were citing St. John iii.5 which states: "Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." He commissions the Apostles with the mission of the Church before the Ascension saying: "Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world." c.f., St. Matthew xxviii.19,20. With these two verses it is evident that Baptism is necessary for salvation. Your claim that a man is to be born of water (which you evidently claim to mean the amniotic fluid) and then again later of the Holy Ghost is laughable since Our Lord says explicitly "Unless a man be born [b]again[/b] of water and the Holy Ghost" such that his birth of water is a different birth than his natural birth. At the same time it is also evident that, while his birth of water is different from his natural birth, his supernatural birth of the Holy Ghost is attained at the same time as his birth of water (which actually effects the birth of the Holy Ghost). Your argument that water is the natural birth (amniotic fluid) is disproved by the words of Our Lord as he answers Nicodemus's question: "How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter a second time into his mother's womb, and be born again?" c.f., St. John iii.4. Our Lord then answers that a man must be born [i]again[/i] (not in the womb) of water and the Holy Ghost. The birth of water is not the natural birth.

In any event, I chose the first choice, the only one defined [i]De Fide [/i]by the Church as necessary for salvation.

Edited August 2, 2004 by amarkich

[Guest JeffCR07]

amen to that, Sigga!

Edited August 2, 2004 by JeffCR07

[M.SIGGA]

[quote]That poll didn't give the choice I would have said

"If you confess with your mouth "Jesus is Lord", and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead" you shall be saved. Also, your faith must work in charity (Galatians 5:6), and you must persevere unto the end. [/quote]

I only meant to quote this.

[Brother Adam]

Soteriology is much to complex to be adequately summed up in any of those statements.

I like this better:

Those who God saves, will be saved.

[Spriles]

[quote name='amarkich' date='Aug 2 2004, 04:33 PM'] ICHTUS, that is a good joke, but I do not think anyone would believe something so outlandish regarding the amniotic fluid birth. I believe you were citing St. John iii.5 which states: "Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." He commissions the Apostles with the mission of the Church before the Ascension saying: "Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world." c.f., St. Matthew xxviii.19,20. With these two verses it is evident that Baptism is necessary for salvation. Your claim that a man is to be born of water (which you evidently claim to mean the amniotic fluid) and then again later of the Holy Ghost is laughable since Our Lord says explicitly "Unless a man be born [b]again[/b] of water and the Holy Ghost" such that his birth of water is a different birth than his natural birth. At the same time it is also evident that, while his birth of water is different from his natural birth, his supernatural birth of the Holy Ghost is attained at the same time as his birth of water (which actually effects the birth of the Holy Ghost). Your argument that water is the natural birth (amniotic fluid) is disproved by the words of Our Lord as he answers Nicodemus's question: "How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter a second time into his mother's womb, and be born again?" c.f., St. John iii.4. Our Lord then answers that a man must be born [i]again[/i] (not in the womb) of water and the Holy Ghost. The birth of water is not the natural birth.

In any event, I chose the first choice, the only one defined [i]De Fide [/i]by the Church as necessary for salvation. [/quote]
Sorry, but ICHTUS is dead on when he refers to "Born of water" as amniotic fluid.
It is incredibly clear that Jesus is not referring Baptism when he says "born of water". Nicodemus's asks how is a man born again. Jesus answers by saying, "You must be born of water (Physical Birth) and born [b]again[/b] of the spirit (the second birth)." In the sentence directly after that, Jesus says "Flesh gives birth to flesh but the Spirit gives birth Spirit." When somone is born of the spirit it is then he is born again.

[Brother Adam]

To the extent that "to be born again" is refering to the supernatural act of the Holy Spirit in the Sacrament of Baptism - yes.

[Dave]

[quote name='Spriles' date='Aug 2 2004, 06:04 PM'] Sorry, but ICHTUS is dead on when he refers to "Born of water" as amniotic fluid.
It is incredibly clear that Jesus is not referring Baptism when he says "born of water". Nicodemus's asks how is a man born again. Jesus answers by saying, "You must be born of water (Physical Birth) and born [b]again[/b] of the spirit (the second birth)." In the sentence directly after that, Jesus says "Flesh gives birth to flesh but the Spirit gives birth Spirit." When somone is born of the spirit it is then he is born again. [/quote]
It's incredibly clear that Jesus IS referring to baptism. The context of the passage clearly points toward baptism, and there is no evidence that the Greek word for water (hudor) represents amniotic fluid. If John had wished to show a dichotomy between water and the Spirit, he would have said "born of water and of the Spirit," thus indicating two births. When John speaks of being born of water and the Spirit, he mentions them as being a part of the same spiritual rebirth that takes place at baptism (as Paul affirms in Titus 3:5).