Townhall Article On Pp Shirts

[qfnol31]

[quote name='DancesforLove' date='Aug 2 2004, 11:51 PM']that is something I've thought about too if I was in that situation flowery, would I have the abortion? part of me views it as Gods plan that it is his plan for me to die while carrying the child. But I don't know.[/quote]

Well, I'll begin with what you've said so far. It doesn't matter what you would do in that situation. All that matters is that which is right according to Natural Law. Sometimes it takes a person who's not in a situation to be able to say something to a person who is in that situation because the first person's mind isn't clouded, but the second's most likely is. It's not up to us to say "I don't know what I would do in that situation," for that would be a sin.

[quote name='DancesforLove' date='Aug 2 2004, 11:51 PM']I also agree with shelly, if it is just outlawed then people will be doing it on the streets and stuff which isn't better now is it? Also, is it right to outlaw something (I'm not saying its right) and say "no one can have abortions at all" because of religious and moral beliefs that not all people posess. Is it right for us to restrict every other women in America to something she doesn't view as a sin and to her is morally ok. It is something to think about, I mean YES it is absolutely wrong and horrible and should be restricted but is it right to force our beliefs on the rest of the women, because chances are it won't change there minds.[/quote]

Again, doesn't matter what people do. It's up to the government to protect the people, and really govern the people. Well, by not outlawing abortion (or rather, permitting it), and since abortion is wrong on so many levels, the government has now really put themselves into a bad situation. They're accountable for all the people under them, and so not to fulfill that which they are there for is wrong.

It doesn't matter the religion of people, Natural Law says abortion is wrong. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. Doesn't matter what religion you are, it's wrong. You may not realize it or accept it, but it's written deep in your soul that it's wrong. This is why so many women suffer after having an abortion. And yes, we have every right and duty to tell people not to have an abortion. Did you know that when our country was first founded, blasphemy was outlawed? I think it's an absurd result of democracy that we think that we shouldn't tell people how to live and they can choose for themself. Of course they do have free will, but to allow evil to happen is a sin on our part.

[quote name='DancesforLove' date='Aug 2 2004, 11:51 PM']I think there is a better approach to changing the views of abortion than bombing clinics or even protesting, I think we must show them a better option that will appeal to what THEY believe because we aren't going to convince some atheist person who we don't know not to have an abortion by outlawing it and saying that a higher being she doesn't believe in says its wrong.[/quote]

I agree to the bombing thing. It's a sin to bomb a clinic in my honest opinion. Doesn't matter what goes on inside, we do not need to resort to violence, plus it's against the law (which we are subject to). We can protest, and should, because it does work. When you see that one woman turned away by praying outside of an abortion clinic, then you'll understand. I've seen it happen, so we can't change a person's mind about the abortion? I disagree. However, it's not so much changing their mind as it is that we're helping them to see what they already know. Remember, Natural Law is inscribed in everyone, whether they want it or not, so deep down they know what's right and what's wrong.

Oh, by the way, we're not judging them. I've never said that a person having an abortion is going to Hell. That's judging. However, we are judging their action, which we have every right to do. If we didn't judge actions, then we wouldn't be able to discern right from wrong and follow what's right.

Also, it's not wrong to tell someone their wrong if they're not going to listen. It is wrong if we don't tell them because of that reason. If you see someone doing wrong, you want to make sure that they get to Heaven, no? Then why let them do such an act. All of this is done in charity of course. If we truly love someone, then we'll want them to get to Heaven. Well, is letting them do an act that can bring damnation onto them something you want to let someone do? Is that loving them?

Okay, that's just my .02.

[qfnol31]

[quote name='DancesforLove' date='Aug 3 2004, 12:08 AM'] no doubt!!! BUT you have to make the people having the abortions see that, because it is obvious they don't see that it's wrong.
[/quote]
It's inscribed in them that it's wrong. Natural Law, as I stated in my last post.

[quote name='DancesforLove' date='Aug 3 2004, 12:08 AM']Be real, we can protest and preach about how wrong it is and IF the clinics close what will the patients who still haven't change their minds resort to then? Will they starve themselves to kill the baby, that is the least of evils they can do to abort the baby, not to mention self-abortions![/quote]

Do you know the quote of Gandalf in Lord of the Ring, Return of the King? It is for us to do what we can with the time that is given us. (That's paraphrased of course). Doesn't matter if they'll keep doing the abortions, that's their problem, and hopefully we'll be able to do something about it when it comes to that point. But for now it is an evil that abortion is legal in our country. If we outlaw abortion, then it will become much less frequent, no?

[quote name='DancesforLove' date='Aug 3 2004, 12:08 AM']All I am saying is it will take much more than outlawing it to make the people change. It is like when the atheist people come into the PM chat with us and tell us how wrong we are for praying to Saints. We belive it's right, they don't, no matter what either of us say our opinions don't change because we have out beliefs and they have theirs. We aren't going to change peoples mind by condemning them and telling them they are wrong and we are right, we have to SHOW them the light and the difference between right and wrong by setting the example not by telling them they will burn in eternal hellfire, a place they mostlikely don't believe in.[/quote]

Maybe it will take more than that to change it, but if one life is spared, is that enough? I understand how you feel about us forcing our beliefs on others, and them forcing it on us. However, we do have the fullness of truth in the Catholic Church. We know it for a fact. Natural Law is also a factor in this. It's not so much a forcing of our opinions on them, but rather a revelation of what they already know.

And we are not condemning them. Only God does that. We are telling them that they're wrong (lovingly, and really not so directly in most cases) to hopefully save them from that damnation that you refer to. We may have to show them the light, but sometimes it's necessary to use words and also punish. The government has this right and responsibility to be there for the people, that means considering this life and the next. Too bad most governments forget about the next. It's not their consern what people will say, but rather it is their job to do what's right, no matter what.

Again, my .02.

Edited because I'm slow and forgot quotes!

Edited August 3, 2004 by qfnol31

[DancesforLove]

Ok Zach, you missed the boat BIG time on everything I said lol.

I think it SHOULD be outlawed, it IS wrong and what they are doing IS wrong and I will tell anyone I know that has had an abortion that.
I am saying that the people having the abortion aren't caring that is wrong OBVIOUSLY or they wouldn't do it, they know it is wrong. Outlawing abortion alone will not stop it, we've outlawed drugs but you and I know that didn't stop anything.
I was not personally saying you are telling people they will go to hell for it or judging them, I am saying alot of people do.
It will not matter what you say to someone about it being wrong, they haven't listened to us this far, they won't just MAJICALLY change their minds about it.
I didn't say we can't change their opinions by protesting I'm saying it's not enough! look at the abortion rates right now, something more has to be done.
If it is about loving them, which it is, then we need to go that extra mile and say you know what protesting isn't enough, we must do something more.
And it IS about what they believe, they may deep down believe it's wrong because it is, but they might not know how to admit it or feel they have no choice, we have to change that.
We may change that persons mind by praying for them, but it's not all of them, some people will get angry. We can't just go on what is working for a few people, we have to do all we can to help. We can tell them it's wrong but in the end they will feel more like we are against them, which is what most people feel, that we are against them because people DO judge them and their descisions they DO tell them they will go to hell for it, you yourself said it "Well, is letting them do an act that can bring damnation onto them something you want to let someone do?"
And isn't that a glorified way of saying they could go to hell?
In the end this isn't about what we think, it's what THEY think! Yes deep down they know how horrible what they are doing is, but we must bring that feeling to the surface by reaching to them more.

[qfnol31]

[quote name='DancesforLove' date='Aug 3 2004, 01:03 AM'] Ok Zach, you missed the boat BIG time on everything I said lol. [/quote]
My apologies. :wub:

[DancesforLove]

aww Zach it is ok dear! I may have been unclear on what I said

[franciscanheart]

[quote name='DancesforLove' date='Aug 2 2004, 11:51 PM'] that is something I've thought about too if I was in that situation flowery, would I have the abortion? part of me views it as Gods plan that it is his plan for me to die while carrying the child. But I don't know.
I also agree with shelly, if it is just outlawed then people will be doing it on the streets and stuff which isn't better now is it? Also, is it right to outlaw something (I'm not saying its right) and say "no one can have abortions at all" because of religious and moral beliefs that not all people posess. Is it right for us to restrict every other women in America to something she doesn't view as a sin and to her is morally ok. It is something to think about, I mean YES it is absolutely wrong and horrible and should be restricted but is it right to force our beliefs on the rest of the women, because chances are it won't change there minds.

I think there is a better approach to changing the views of abortion than bombing clinics or even protesting, I think we must show them a better option that will appeal to what THEY believe because we aren't going to convince some atheist person who we don't know not to have an abortion by outlawing it and saying that a higher being she doesn't believe in says its wrong. [/quote]
abortion is wrong for more reasons than religious ones although this is the one that we all hold high up, the fact that our Lord said it was wrong. Abortion is wrong because it is taking another humans life. It is murder. Murder is wrong to everyone. No one protests that. Excuse me, no sane person protests that.

And yes we have every reason to outlaw abortions even though not every woman in America has a problem with it. It is murder. Maybe outlawing it would be the first step in showing them how wrong it is. If we can, should we not help others to stop sinning???? If we got rid of clinics a lot of people would probably think twice about it. Maybe by ridding our country of them people would see that there is a strong conviction about them and it's not just "those crazy Catholics" trying to "push their faith on us."


Maybe I'm out there but that's what I think.

[franciscanheart]

amen to everything zach said....




he seems to have a way with words.... i can never express what i want to express



but amen to all of that because its exactly how i feel too

[franciscanheart]

[quote]I think it SHOULD be outlawed, it IS wrong and what they are doing IS wrong and I will tell anyone I know that has had an abortion that. [/quote]

dont seclude those having abortions, how about telling your congressmen and your President how you feel about it. how about telling every voter who says yes to choice that you feel that way. how about simply telling the world. we tend to target the women having them and while yes this is where it starts and stops, if we had more people voting for LIFE in our country these women probably wouldn't have the choice to walk into one of these clinics.


[quote]I am saying that the people having the abortion aren't caring that is wrong OBVIOUSLY or they wouldn't do it, they know it is wrong.[/quote]

I understand what you're saying, but not always the case. Some women don't have the guts to do what is right and often times don't have anyone supporting their decision to protect life. A lot of women are scared into doing it. I understand that the majority is probably just a crowd of people who want sex not babies but let's remember that we can't classify them all as being cold-hearted and unhurt by what is going on. ((This does not mean, of course, that I think that this should lessen the fact that they are killing a human but I often feel that we demoralize them to ourselves because of what they have done.))


[quote]Outlawing abortion alone will not stop it, we've outlawed drugs but you and I know that didn't stop anything.[/quote]

Outlawing abortion is the first step though. Had abortion not been legal, it would not be so "popular." And the drug use has gone down because of the fact that it is illegal. And people are punished for doing drugs. A lot of people are arrested and surprisingly enough, SHAPE UP after going through therapy and counseling.


[quote]It will not matter what you say to someone about it being wrong, they haven't listened to us this far, they won't just MAJICALLY change their minds about it.[/quote]

For some people that is what it takes. It takes you sitting down with them and explaining what is wrong with it. Not everyone will listen, but why not start with those that will!


[quote]I didn't say we can't change their opinions by protesting I'm saying it's not enough! look at the abortion rates right now, something more has to be done.If it is about loving them, which it is, then we need to go that extra mile and say you know what protesting isn't enough, we must do something more. [/quote]

Like outlawing it? and Prayer.


[quote]And it IS about what they believe, they may deep down believe it's wrong because it is, but they might not know how to admit it or feel they have no choice, we have to change that.
We may change that persons mind by praying for them, but it's not all of them, some people will get angry. We can't just go on what is working for a few people, we have to do all we can to help.[/quote]

It may not be all of them but you can't win everyone in one day and you can't win everyone the same way. Do you give up on 1,000 because of 10 who don't agree? And no one is saying that we can't do more. We all believe there is more to be done. And every single day we push for something more, for better standards for our nation. BUT we are not going to stop praying in front of the clinics and praying for them every single day in our own thoughts because it is working for SOME and those SOME can help to convert another group and another and another.


[quote]We can tell them it's wrong but in the end they will feel more like we are against them, which is what most people feel, that we are against them because people DO judge them and their descisions they DO tell them they will go to hell for it,[/quote]

So let them know that we are not against them. It's like Zach said, we do not judge them, we judge their action. We do not agree with what they are doing but we do not look down upon them or think less of them as a person. We look down upon their decision. And yes, people DO judge them and DO tell them they are going to go to hell which means that our fight for life needs to be a positive one and not one that tears these people apart. Even the little things like saying that these people obviously cant see or feel the wrong in what they are doing is tearing them down. YES, some of them are blind to what they are doing, but instead of pointing this out, why not go and try to show them how wrong they are. We sit around and talk, lets do!


[quote]you yourself said it "Well, is letting them do an act that can bring damnation onto them something you want to let someone do?"
And isn't that a glorified way of saying they could go to hell?[/quote]

All sin if not confessed and if not repented for could lead us to eternal damnation. I am pretty sure Zach meant in no way to say they would go to hell for their actions, especially if they do NOT see the wrong in what they do. We are just trying to help secure for them a place in heaven and to allow the human they have created a chance to live on this beautiful earth and glorify God the way they were intended.


[quote]In the end this isn't about what we think, it's what THEY think! Yes deep down they know how horrible what they are doing is, but we must bring that feeling to the surface by reaching to them more.[/quote]

Yes.




and so ends my two cents rant....

[Donna]

Just wanted to reply re: abortion for medical reasons. However, the exceprt I wanted to cite from the wisdom of the Church touches on much more, as will be seen - for example about whether outlawing abortion is wise.


This is from [i]Casti Connubi [/i](Christian Marriage), Pope Pius XI, Dec. 31, 1930:
([i]My emphasis[/i]).

58. As regards the evil use of matrimony, to pass over the arguments which are shameful, not infrequently others that are false and exaggerated are put forward. [color=purple][i]Holy Mother Church very well understands and clearly appreciates all that is said regarding the health of the mother and the danger to her life. And who would not grieve to think of these things? Who is not filled with the greatest admiration when he sees a mother risking her life with heroic fortitude, that she may preserve the life of the offspring which she has conceived?[/i][/color] God alone, all bountiful and all merciful as He is, can reward her for the fulfillment of the office allotted to her by nature, and will assuredly repay her in a measure full to overflowing.[47]


63. But another very grave crime is to be noted, Venerable Brethren, which regards the taking of the life of the offspring hidden in the mother's womb. Some wish it to be allowed and left to the will of the father or the mother; [color=purple][i]others say it is unlawful unless there are weighty reasons which they call by the name of medical, social, or eugenic "indication." Because this matter falls under the penal laws of the state by which the destruction of the offspring begotten but unborn is forbidden, these people demand that the "indication," which in one form or another they defend, be recognized as such by the public law and in no way penalized[/color]]. There are those, moreover, who ask that the public authorities provide aid for these death-dealing operations, a thing, which, sad to say, everyone knows is of very frequent occurrence in some places.

64. [color=green]As to the "medical and therapeutic indication" to which, using their own words, we have made reference, Venerable Brethren, however much we may pity the mother whose health and even life is gravely imperiled in the performance of the duty allotted to her by nature, nevertheless what could ever be a sufficient reason for excusing in any way the direct murder of the innocent? This is precisely what we are dealing with here. [/color] Whether inflicted upon the mother or upon the child, it is against the precept of God and the law of nature: "Thou shalt not kill:"[50] The life of each is equally sacred, and no one has the power, not even the public authority, to destroy it. It is of no use to appeal to the right of taking away life for here it is a question of the innocent, whereas that right has regard only to the guilty; [color=green]nor is there here question of defense by bloodshed against an unjust aggressor (for who would call an innocent child an unjust aggressor?); again there is not question here of what is called the [color=blue]"law of extreme necessity"[/color] which could even extend to the direct killing of the innocent.[/color] Upright and skillful doctors strive most praiseworthily to guard and preserve the lives of both mother and child; on the contrary, those show themselves [color=green]most unworthy [/color]of the noble medical profession who encompass the death of one or the other, through a pretense at practicing medicine or through motives of [color=green]misguided pity[/color][/i].

65. All of which agrees with the stern words of the Bishop of Hippo in denouncing those wicked parents who seek to remain childless, and failing in this, are not ashamed to put their offspring to death: "Sometimes this lustful cruelty or cruel lust goes so far as to seek to procure a baneful sterility, and if this fails the fetus conceived in the womb is in one way or another smothered or evacuated, in the desire to destroy the offspring before it has life, or if it already lives in the womb, to kill it before it is born. If both man and woman are party to such practices they are not spouses at all; and if from the first they have carried on thus they have come together not for honest wedlock, but for impure gratification; if both are not party to these deeds, I make bold to say that either the one makes herself a mistress of the husband, or the other simply the paramour of his wife."[51]

66. What is asserted in favor of the social and eugenic "indication" may and must be accepted, provided lawful and upright methods are employed within the proper limits; but to wish to put forward reasons based upon them for the killing of the innocent is unthinkable and contrary to the divine precept promulgated in the words of the Apostle:[color=red] [b]Evil is not to be done that good may come of it.[[/b][/color]52]

67. Those who hold the reins of government should not forget that [i]it is the duty of public authority by appropriate laws and sanctions to defend the lives of the innocent, and this all the more so since those whose lives are endangered and assailed cannot defend themselves[/i]. Among whom we must mention in the first place infants hidden in the mother's womb. [color=red]And if the public magistrates not only do not defend them, but by their laws and ordinances betray them to death at the hands of doctors or of others, let them remember that God is the Judge and Avenger of innocent blood which cried from earth to Heaven[/color].[53]

[Donna]

Look toward the end of # 64: [color=green]for who would call an innocent child an unjust agressor? [/color]

When all is said and done, the majority of those who are pro-abortion would.

The NOW and feminist ppl uphold [i]the woman's [/i](they never say [i]"the mother's"[/i]) choice, period. But this is deceit; and by this whole Margaret Sanger state of mind, they most certainly do consider the baby an unjust agressor.

This is an inversion: a total opposite, and turning inside out of, right/ true and beautiful order.

So it's got the devil's pawprints all over it, and he is laughing.


[b]Combat Prayers:[/b]

[i]Eternal Father, I offer Thee
The Cross of our Lord Jesus Christ
And all the instruments of His holy Passion:

That Thou may put DIVISION
In the camp of Thine enemies:
For as Thy Beloved Son has said:
A Kingdom divided against itself shall fall.[/i]_____________________________________

[i]Let God arise
Let His enimies be scattered
And let those who hate Him
Fly before His Face

My Jesus, Mercy![/i]



PS: Our Lord said these prayers (part of devotion to the Holy Face of Jesus) would not only aid in defeating "revolutionary men" bent on overthrowing Godly social order, but would also bring graces for the conversion of sinners - including apostate Catholics.

[Lil Red]

thanks, Donna!

[DancesforLove]

ok Laura I think you might need to re read my posts because you missed the boat like Zach did.
Ok, the congressmen and people in our government aren't the ones having the abortion, it's the women. Talking them into outlawing it will NOT stop the abortions, they will resort to much more horrible means of terminating the baby.

Ok I am not spending my time re writing everything I've already said and explaining my point of view again because yall missed it so far.
I suggest re reading what I said though, I am saying that it should be outlawed we should and protest but we need to talk to the women themselves in a way that is more of someone helping them and not being against their choices, we have to show them we are trying to better their life and the life of their baby.

[franciscanheart]

i've read and reread everything you said after you told zach he didnt get it. and maybe in my post i seemed to be missin it but i understand what youre saying and i honestly think we are agreeing but have two different ways of putting it.... sorry

[DancesforLove]

lol ok laura. not biggie

[RandomProddy]

[quote name='shelly_freak' date='Aug 3 2004, 06:23 AM'] the best way for us to stop abortion is to get to the root of the problem. we cant just outlaw it because then women would use other methods to have an abortion that aren't safe [/quote]
Therefore everything should be legal, because people are going to do it anyway.