To Punish Or To Love

[Sentientbaka]

This has been a topic of much heated debated amung my protestant brothers and I. For a very long time I have taken the stance of "God dose not punish us, We punish ourselves" and they take the oppisite stance and say God punishs us for our own good.

This theology chills me down to the core, and I tell them that...

which they respond by using their idea of a punishing God and applying to a Father giving a child a timeout, and I ask them "was the Father angry at the child, and thats why he gave him a time out?" and they would reply "yes"

So using this line of thought I applied it to other things...

Adam and Eve eat the apple, God gets angry, punishes them with sin death disease, and toss's them out of Garden,

They would say, "Well, we CHOSE to sin, and the punishment God wrought was death, but God DID give them clothes after they realised they were naked"

I could go on and on using this line of thinking throughtout the whole bible, but I would rather use this line of thinking in a real life situation that occurred recently

A man I heard about had a child out of wedlock, he was planning on marrieing the girl as soon as he had enough money. 1 year later he has saved enough, the wedding is to be had soon. The soon to be wife and child we're driving home and both were killed in a car accident...

Using the punishing God theroy you could say the man was being punished for premaritel sex and having a child out of wedlock...

What a horrible thought, it makes me sick to my stomach to even write it...

I could write more, but I think I'll sum it up

Following this theroy and examining the bible with it you could say the God the father is all about rightous anger, God the son is all about forgiveness, and the holy spirit is indifferant. Our exsistance is a offense to God, since we are so riddled with sin, and we should be apologieing to our father constantely for the offense. He will punish us constantly either gentle or corporal. Death will be more like going to court rather then reconciliation, and entering heaven will not be like the prodical son returning home...

Is this really our God?

[dUSt]

Moving to Debate Table...

[ironmonk]

[quote]Adam and Eve eat the apple, God gets angry, punishes them with sin death disease, [/quote]

No, God warned them that if they eat from the tree of knowledge that they would die. God could not allow them to be in the garden so that they would not eat from the tree of life. Man brought death upon himself.

When a father loves his children, he chastises them. God the Father, Son, & Holy Spirit gives us ample opportunity to come to Him.


[quote]Using the punishing God theroy you could say the man was being punished for premaritel sex and having a child out of wedlock...[/quote]

Bad things happen so good things can. Everything is for the greater glory of God. No man can say if something was punishment or not. Everything is a test. We will give account for what is in our heart on the day of judgement. Many factors are to be considered. Such as was the man knowledgable of the way of Christ, did the man have faith and in a momment of weakness this happened. The reasoning to wait for marriage is not a valid one because getting married does not cost much at all. Many people today want over the top weddings... it's better to have a small wedding that cost the price of the marriage license and the stipend for the Priest, many priests will not accept a stipend if you can't afford it and you are a practicing Catholic.

Our God is a Just, Merciful, and Loving God. He created us, everything He does is just, God can never be unjust because He is God. He is what makes Just - Just.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[Ash Wednesday]

[quote]Using the punishing God theory you could say the man was being punished for premaritel sex and having a child out of wedlock...[/quote]

Personally, I don't think God "punishes" this way. Remember, someone asked Jesus if one's blindness was as a result of one's sins, to which Jesus said no. Sometimes these things happen for a reason, we only see but a sliver of what God does in the universe. Maybe this man's marriage was not destined to be right, could have ended up a broken family. You never know, really, but I guess we just have to trust that there is a Greater Plan in action.

My mom died in November, and was a model Catholic and Christian with so much more give in life, so it's hard for me to understand why he had to take her sooner than we expected. But in the end I trust that she was complete in the School of Life and God willed her eternal rest, and that he did this for a greater good -- awareness that we are all mortal, and thus aid in the conversions of those around her.

I think God can and has chastised people who needed it -- a prodigal son living a terrible, sinful life faced suddenly with all the sins he has committed and the possibility of hell -- this has happened to people and as a result they turn their lives around and find true peace. So he gives wakeup calls but ultimately not out of anger but out of love.

I trust God is infinitely loving and merciful. But as part of this love, he also knows all and sees all and is infinitely and perfectly just, and makes all straight. So I guess it's a matter of walking the line by not taking his Love and Mercy for granted, but at the same time, having trust and not despairing of it, either.

[Guest JeffCR07]

I have just a few thoughts.

First:

[quote]Adam and Eve eat the apple, God gets angry, punishes them with sin death disease, and toss's them out of Garden,[/quote]

God does not, in reality, "get angry" with us. This would imply a change in the state of an unchanging constant (God). Rather, God is eternal, Perfect Justice, and any time we sin, that Justice will be served, one way or another.

With regards to Hell:

We must remember that God is both Perfect Justice and Perfect Mercy. He will forgive us whenever we seek forgiveness, but when we commit mortal sin, we reject his mercy. Thus, it is his Perfect Justice that allows us to reject him, for in doing so, we are punished.

Think of it like this. My spirit is standing before the Throne of God and I have premarital sex, then die (wierd, but just for the sake of argument, lets go with it). The moment I commit this mortal sin, my soul says to God,

"I reject you, and your love for me, and I do not desire to be with you anymore!"

God replies, "Fine, then you are banished from my presence."

My soul walks away from the presence of God and into Hell (because I died in a state of unrepentant mortal sin).

Did I cast myself into Hell? Yes. Did God "send" me to Hell? Yes. Do these conflict? No.

I hope that helps.

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff

[carrdero]

Ash Wednesday writes: we only see but a sliver of what God does in the universe.but I guess we just have to trust that there is a Greater Plan in action.

I believe this and I am encouraging this towards one of my TRUTHs. The "sliver" does get bigger when we step back and see how this theory operates in everyday life.

[Quietfire]

Im just gonna jump in here quickly to make a comment/question and hopefully if I have time tomorrow I will expand on this, but why does everyone see death as a punishment?


Peace.

[Brother Adam]

Quietfire,

Death is not so much a punishment as it is a payment. The Bible records that "The wages of sin is death". At the end of our earthly lives, if we obligate God to repay us for our works the only payment we will recieve is death - for "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God".

[cmotherofpirl]

Genesis 3
17: And to Adam he said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, `You shall not eat of it,' cursed is the ground because of you; in toil you shall eat of it all the days of your life;
18: thorns and thistles it shall bring forth to you; and you shall eat the plants of the field.
19: [u]In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; you are dust, and to dust you shall return." [/u]

Romans 5
12: [u]Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned -- [/u]
13: sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.
14: Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sins were not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come

Edited August 2, 2004 by cmotherofpirl

[ironmonk]

[quote name='Quietfire' date='Aug 2 2004, 06:53 PM'] Im just gonna jump in here quickly to make a comment/question and hopefully if I have time tomorrow I will expand on this, but why does everyone see death as a punishment?


Peace. [/quote]
Death in this case is to be kept from Heaven.

After the fall of man, no one could enter Heaven, and no one did enter Heaven until Christ came and went to Heaven.

Now, we are not dead when we die, if we go to Heaven.


God Bless,
ironmonk