M.SIGGA Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 I've been pondering for awhile now if a single event in the history of United States could have triggered a different relationship between the Catholic laity, their nation, and the Church in America. I'm speaking about the results of this "possible" event which are very real today in America: 1. Catholic politicians publicly defy the Catholic Church and claim to justify it; some without correction for many years, and when comfronted today have no fear of threatened excommunication. 2. Catholic laity supporting these politicians and anti-Catholic views without worry of excommunication either. I think JFK's famous speech to the Southern Baptist Convention, separating his Catholicism from his role as Commander and Chief, is the very event which sparked the change. From talking to my grandparents about this earlier today, they agreed that before JFK it seemed things were very different. The Kennedy family sort of set the trend for "American" Catholicism in the United States for the next 4 decades, until now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 You are so right, M.SIGGA. Heck, I remember reading somewhere that JFK came right out and said that if the Church said he had to do a certain thing while in office that would conflict with what he felt were his duties as president, he'd just refuse to obey the Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash Wednesday Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 M.Sigga you've hit the nail right on the head. I also call it "Conscience Catholicism" and "Conscience Catholics". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey's_Girl Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 Okay, but if that one speech "triggered" the whole thing, that means all the bishops sat back and let JFK define American Catholicism for them. Isn't that a bit simplistic? I mean no offense; I just don't see how one can pin the whole thing on that. There were general societal trends that were doing people in. The sexual revolution was one of them...people who didn't have a grounded faith to begin with found it easy to see the Church as just one more authority to question...one more part of the "establishment". And of course you also have "don't trust anyone over thirty", which pretty much cut out anyone higher than one's parish priest. JFK is responsible for many different things, but the Fall of American Catholicism isn't one of them. Much of that drama started happening in the later 1960s, anyway. JFK died in 1963. My .02. MG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash Wednesday Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 I see your point, MG. It's very hard to pin the cause on one single thing, it could have been a combination of JFK, misinterpretation of Vatican II, and the 60s counterculture. Just the general "winds of change" that have snowballed. Of course he can't be held individually responsible for the [b]everything[/b] that ran away with it, but I think Kennedy did set the tone for American Catholic thought as the first Catholic president, particularly in politics, I would say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey's_Girl Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 I'd definitely agree to the idea of "setting the tone". Definitely. MG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocco Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 I agree with a lot of the thing you guys are saying! I think that a lot of polotitians claiming to be catholic have given the Church a bad rap. John Kerry is supposed to be Catholic but he doesnt act like it or reflect our values. Last night the news showed him singing along and participating in a protestant church service. Kennedy said while he was in office that he would not let his Catholocism dictate his decisions as president. Doesn't our catholic faith dictate our moral and the way we behave every day? Rocco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 Kennedy's theology sparked a very broad movement from those who tried to combine hippy philosophy with Catholic theology, thinking falsely that Vatican II had approved such ridiculous things. Of course, Vatican II had not, but that didn't matter to these folks. My father's siblings are all a part of this movement. I pray for them frequently. From my observations, I think that their lack of fear of excommunication stems from their believes in moral relativity and "truth subjectivism." My aunt, for instance, was kicked out of her high school theology class for proposing that all religions were valid and that our concepts of God (to her, God is just a human concept which we worship) were merely constructs of our environment. Therefore, in the spirit of hippy philosophy, since all environments are equal, but merely different, all concept of God must be equal in their view. This allows them to say to themselves, "well, what are they going to do, excommunicate me? Bah! That won't affect me, because I have put myself in an environment where excommunication is not applicable to me. They can say 'excommunicated' all they want, but I know that it's just a meaningless word, because I believe that." It's one of the most brilliant schemes Satan ever devised. An evil counterpart to courage. Of course, it's not really courage...as all Satan's replacements, it falls short. Courage is the ability to face anything with the help of God supporting oneself. Satan's plan is the ability to remain purposely ignorant about a subject. Satan's plan is not the courage of knights and crusaders of old; it is the false courage of children who foolishly enter the dens of monsters because they do not realize what they are doing. The difference is knowledge. Knights know the dragons they fight. Children do not, and mostly because the dragon hides that knowledge from them. The trouble with this philosophy, of course, is that, by her own philosophy, she can't [b][i]know[/i][/b] that she will be unaffected by excommunication. It's a paradox. So all moral relativity and subjectivism boils down to one base principle: There are no truths; everything is merely subjective. My reply, "is that true?" Think about it. To say that there are no absolute truths is to state an absolute truth about the nature of truth. A blatent contradiction. This the point we must push. It is the chink in Satan's armor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 [quote name='M.SIGGA' date='Aug 2 2004, 01:49 AM'] I've been pondering for awhile now if a single event in the history of United States could have triggered a different relationship between the Catholic laity, their nation, and the Church in America. I'm speaking about the results of this "possible" event which are very real today in America: 1. Catholic politicians publicly defy the Catholic Church and claim to justify it; some without correction for many years, and when comfronted today have no fear of threatened excommunication. 2. Catholic laity supporting these politicians and anti-Catholic views without worry of excommunication either. I think JFK's famous speech to the Southern Baptist Convention, separating his Catholicism from his role as Commander and Chief, is the very event which sparked the change. From talking to my grandparents about this earlier today, they agreed that before JFK it seemed things were very different. The Kennedy family sort of set the trend for "American" Catholicism in the United States for the next 4 decades, until now. [/quote] Very good point. It's sad how so many politicians do not have integrity and will change for the group that they are talking to. I wish more people would realize what a flaw this was in character. It's understandable that a politician might change his mind on one or two things, but then when so many of them are constantly changing their song on the campaign trail, it's pathetic. They stand for nothing. It's a shot in the dark to what we'll end up with. This very reason is why I have always disliked JFK since I learned of him in US History in the 9th grade. He was a man without integrity. He was a man that lied. The very fact that he said he could seperate his faith, proves he had no faith. A man without faith can seperate it from his daily life, but a man with faith cannot. God Bless, ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocco Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 [quote]A man without faith can seperate it from his daily life, but a man with faith cannot.[/quote] Very good point Ironmonk i was kind of trying to say that! Rocco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash Wednesday Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 [quote]So all moral relativity and subjectivism boils down to one base principle: There are no truths; everything is merely subjective. My reply, "is that true?"[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.SIGGA Posted August 2, 2004 Author Share Posted August 2, 2004 I think the Kennedy's trend went further than just a division between true doctrine and politics. My grandmother told me yesterday that the first time she went to Mass and almost no one was covering their head was the same week after Jackie Kennedy appeared on television without wearing a hat or veil leaving Mass. She also said when Robert Kennedy's wife was shown leaving Mass in a suit on TV, that was when she herself quit wearing dresses all the time to church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusty Fro Posted August 3, 2004 Share Posted August 3, 2004 INTRIGUING! Politics are a funny thing, aren't they? I don't think I would respect a man who would comprimise his beliefs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna Posted August 10, 2004 Share Posted August 10, 2004 I had just posted something similar, and then came across this... Yes, politics and politicians certainly do shape our culture! These are our leaders and our role models. We'd better be darn sure we choose the correct men and women for these turbulent times! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Catherine Posted August 10, 2004 Share Posted August 10, 2004 [quote]A man without faith can seperate it from his daily life, but a man with faith cannot.[/quote] [quote]We'd better be darn sure we choose the correct men and women for these turbulent times! [/quote] These are both so true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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