Okay, Question Time...

[ReformationNow]

Okay, the other morning, I was lying awake because I couldn't sleep(it was about 5a). anyway, I was flipping thru TV and stopped on the EWTN(?) just because every now and then there is something interesting. Anyways, the folk on there were talking about 'praying the rosary.' Now, this is kinda confusing to me. To me, the Rosary(no matter which one) seems more like a chant than a prayer. It doesn't seem to me that it's a prayer. Everytime I hear somebody say it, it's in a very monotone way of speaking. It just seems like something folks say because 'it's the right thing to do.' So, anyways, the question is, how exactly is the rosary considered a prayer?

Just a question.

[Good Friday]

Well, there were really two levels of prayer to the Rosary. The first is the most obvious, and that is the verbal prayer. Of course there are many "cafeteria Catholics" who may just pray the Rosary in a monotonous way, but for most Catholics when they say "Hail Mary, full of grace..." "Our Father, who art in Heaven..." and "Glory be to the Father...", they mean it. And many of them mean it with their whole hearts and souls.

But there is another level of prayer to the Rosary. While praying each decade, Catholics are supposed to be meditating on the Mystery of the Rosary they're praying. Say we're on the Joyful Mysteries, and we're meditating on the Annunciation. While we're praying verbally, we are also supposed to be meditating inwardly on the Annuncation. All the while, we're supposed to be thanking and praising God with the verbal prayers, while also opening ourselves up to Him through our meditation on the Mysteries of the Rosary.

In addition to this, there are other ways the Rosary is prayer. Many Catholics will have a particular prayer intention for each decade of the Rosary. Some will even pray for a different intention on each bead. This is the part you don't hear, the part that's going on inside a person. You're hearing "Hail Mary...", but they might be saying, "Dear God, I need..." or "Dear God, thank you for..."

But yes, the Rosary is definitely a prayer for most Catholics. Of course abuses can occur. It can become just repetitive chanting. But that's frowned upon by the Church.

[ReformationNow]

Why not just pray out loud what you want to pray?

[Unshackled]

The problem with praying the rosary is that it clearly goes against the instructions of Jesus himself when he told us to pray to the Father. To pray to the dead is actually a pagan ritual and there has been no evidence that Mary is not dead. The theory that Mary did not die came from the Vatican II council and as such has no credibility amongst anyone except Catholics. mMake of this what you will but I know what Jesus taught.

[cmotherofpirl]

Why not just pray out loud what you want to pray?

We do.

We also meditate. contemplate, adore, petition and praise.

[jasJis]

Poor confused boy, Unshackeled.

The affirmation by the Church of Assumption of Mary was way before Vatican II and was something written about and believed by the very early Church. You confuse Official Affirmation at a certain date as the date something new is originated. The Church gives official affirmation on long held belief and understanding way afterwards because it' only many centuriess later when questions and doubts come up about something that was common knowledge for eons. If you read Scripture with logic, you'd see that often repeated.

The Rosary is a method of meditating on Scripture while praying verses from Luke, the Lord's prayer, the Creed, and straightforward ol' plain Praises to God and prayers to Jesus. It's often done in a chant, or a little monotone because people are praying out loud and meditating in their mind. It's done this way because it helps to push out everything of the world out of your mind, like it's hot, or cold, or you have an itch, etc. It helps focus all of your mind on meditating on God's word.

[cmotherofpirl]

The problem with praying the rosary is that it clearly goes against the instructions of Jesus himself when he told us to pray to the Father. To pray to the dead is actually a pagan ritual and there has been no evidence that Mary is not dead. The theory that Mary did not die came from the Vatican II council and as such has no credibility amongst anyone except Catholics. mMake of this what you will but I know what Jesus taught.

Wrong.

Jesus gave us the prayer we call the our Father. Nowhere did he say it was the only prayer we could use. Jesus himself prayed the psalms. When he went to synogogue, he prayed the prayers of his fathers. He spend long hours in prayers.

We are to pray unceasingly.

We do not pray to Mary, we pray thru Mary, as all prayer goes to God.

THe Church mentions celebrating tthe feast of Mary's Assumption as far back as the year 451.

If you are going to argue Catholic stuff, learn it first.

[Jake Huether]

Okay, the other morning, I was lying awake because I couldn't sleep(it was about 5a). anyway, I was flipping thru TV and stopped on the EWTN(?) just because every now and then there is something interesting. Anyways, the folk on there were talking about 'praying the rosary.' Now, this is kinda confusing to me. To me, the Rosary(no matter which one) seems more like a chant than a prayer. It doesn't seem to me that it's a prayer. Everytime I hear somebody say it, it's in a very monotone way of speaking. It just seems like something folks say because 'it's the right thing to do.' So, anyways, the question is, how exactly is the rosary considered a prayer?

Nathan is right. While you may "hear" the Rosary as monotone and repetative, you cannot begin to understand what the SOUL is praying and "thinking". I am brought to such hights in my spiritual meditation and prayer THROUGH the rosary. My lips and my voice are producing a devotion to Mary (a devotion is a form of a prayer), all the while Mary is interceding for me AND she is pointing my thoughts and my soul to her Son. If you want to know the Rosary, you cannot just listen to it, because it is much deeper than the vocal prayers. In order to appreciate it, one must first TRY it.

You don't need beeds Ref. Just print out the form from the internet on how to say it - along with the corresponding "Mysteries". While you "chant" the prayer, focus on the particular mystery, and watch Christ's life unfold in a way much more real than anything you've ever experienced.

I find it particularly helpful to meditate on Christ's life by putting myself in His mothers shoes. Watch Christ and feel for Christ, as you believe Mary would! Like for instance, to focus on Christ's life when he was lost for three days is good. But to understand the impact of that event, place yourself in Mary's shoes. How agonizing it was for her. Yet in seeing it from Mary's perspective, it is recipricating. You begin to understand WHY Christ allowed this to happen. You begin to understand Christ MUCH MORE!

Now:

The problem with praying the rosary is that it clearly goes against the instructions of Jesus himself when he told us to pray to the Father.

Then I guess St. Paul was going against Jesus' instructions when he asked his Church to pray for him!

In the Rosary, 1) we are not praying to Mary, we ask her to pray for us. "pray for US sinners, now and at the hour of our death." and 2) while we are asking for Mary's intercession, like Paul, we are also focusing and meditating on the life of Christ!

To pray to the dead is actually a pagan ritual and there has been no evidence that Mary is not dead.

You are wrong on at least 2 points. 1) It is not a "pagan ritual" to pray to the dead. It is a pagan ritual to seak information from the dead. Like soothsayers (sp), or fortunetellers. To ask for intercession through the Body of Christ (you know you don't STOP being part of the Body of Christ once you're dead) is an Apostalic "ritual". And actually, prayers FOR the dead have been a longstanding Jewish Tradition (which even Jesus would have taken part in!). And 2) What does Scripture say about the dead in Christ!? They are MORE alive than we are! They are with God in heaven! Mary, even if her body was dead (which Apostolic Tradition indicates that it isn't), would still be alive in Christ! He soul would be in heaven, where it would be MORE alive than us!

Even when our mortal bodies are severed from life, our Soul and Spirit remain in the Body of Christ. Does your arm ever have NO need for the hand? How can you say that we lose contact with the dead in Christ, when they are still a part of His Body!

The theory that Mary did not die came from the Vatican II council and as such has no credibility amongst anyone except Catholics.

As someone stated, this "theory" was only proclaimed "official" in 1950 (before VII - which kinda makes your statement not "credible"). The fact that it was proclaimed "officially" in 1950 only strengthens the fact that it was universally accepted for a very long time! Even Luther didn't have a problem with this! Well, at least he didn't make mention of it in his original beef (95 point thesis). The Church only "needs" to make "official" proclamations when a TRUE DOGMA is under assult and in danger of being "twisted". Just like the Church had to "officially" canonize the Catholic Bible in 1546, because Luther and his buddies decided to twist it. Of course the "Catholic" Bible was actually the ONLY Bible used untill that time!

So, lesson learned... The Church officially proclaiming something dogma does not mean that this Truth was not "real" or that it was somehow "new". Declaration of Dogma only seaks to protect the Truth that already exists.

Make of this what you will but I know what Jesus taught.

Uh, you only know what the Apostles wrote about what Jesus taught. But then again, without the Authority of the Catholic Church, you wouldn't even have the written acounts of the Apostles to go on...

[Aloysius]

The problem with praying the rosary is that it clearly goes against the instructions of Jesus himself when he told us to pray to the Father. To pray to the dead is actually a pagan ritual and there has been no evidence that Mary is not dead. The theory that Mary did not die came from the Vatican II council and as such has no credibility amongst anyone except Catholics. mMake of this what you will but I know what Jesus taught.

the assumption doesn't say Mary didn't die. Some ppl believe she did, some say she didnt. What the assumption says is that she was taken body and soul into heaven. It all goes along with the fulfillment of the fall of mankind.

also, didn't Jesus talk to the pharisees about this. How God said that He was the God of Abraham and Isaac dot dot dot, then said God is not a God of the dead, but of the living.

It all goes along with the fulfillment of the fall of mankind.

Eve listened to the serpant and accepted the forbidden fruit and thus, sin.

Eve brought forbidden fruit and thus sin to Adam.

Adam and Eve were kicked out of the garden of Eden.

Mary listened to the Angel and accepted the fruit of salvation, which became the blessed fruit of her womb.

Mary brought salvation to the world.

Jesus ascend to heaven. Mary is assumed by God into heaven. Mankind is allowed back into paradise--the beatific vision.

Pax et Amo Christi!

[JP2Iloveyou]

Also, if you are going to take the Bible literally, what about John 3:16? It says, "For God so loved the world that he sent his only Son, that all who believe in him should not perish, but have ETERNAL LIFE in him." (Emphasis mine.) I can't possibly imagine anyone arguing that Mary did not believe in Christ and is therefore not alive in Heaven.

Now realize, I am NOT saying that faith in Christ is all one needs to be saved. I support the Church's teaching on the matter. What I am saying is that some people (not all) who do believe in sola fide conveniently ignore the second half of this verse.

Furthermore, this won't be documented in Scripture, but seriously check out on the internet some of the Marian Apparitions throughout the world. I would highly recommend Fatima, Guadaloupe, Lourdes, and Chestahova. These are places where numerous miracles have taken place and literally thousands of completely sane people claim to have had visions of the Blessed Virgin Mary. Whether or not you believe in them, just to formulate a sound opinion and argument you at least need to check into them.

God Bless.

[gopherball33]

cmom, jasJis, jake, u guys SHUT DOWN unshackled. (no offense unshackled) i would attempt to add something from my tiny tiny knowledge, but it has all been covered

[ironmonk]

The Rosary

The word rosary comes from Latin and means a garland of roses, the rose being one of the flowers used to symbolize the Virgin Mary. If you were to ask what object is most emblematic of Catholics, people would probably say, "The rosary, of course." We’re familiar with the images: the silently moving lips of the old woman fingering her beads; the oversized rosary hanging from the waist of the wimpled nun; more recently, the merely decorative rosary hanging from the rearview mirror.

After Vatican II the rosary fell into relative disuse. The same is true for Marian devotions as a whole. But in recent years the rosary has made a comeback, and not just among Catholics. Many Protestants now say the rosary, recognizing it as a truly biblical form of prayer—after all, the prayers that comprise it come mainly from the Bible.

The rosary is a devotion in honor of the Virgin Mary. It consists of a set number of specific prayers. First are the introductory prayers: one Apostles’ Creed (Credo), one Our Father (the Pater Noster or the Lord’s Prayer), three Hail Mary’s (Ave’s), one Glory Be (Gloria Patri).

The Apostles’ Creed

The Apostles’ Creed is so called not because it was composed by the apostles themselves, but because it expresses their teachings. The original form of the creed came into use around A.D. 125, and the present form dates from the 400s. It reads this way:

"I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth, and in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended into hell. The third day he arose again from the dead. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. From thence he shall come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen."

Traditional Protestants are able to recite the Apostles’ Creed without qualms, meaning every line of it, though to some lines they must give meanings different from those given by Catholics, who composed the creed. For instance, we refer to "the holy Catholic Church," meaning a particular, identifiable Church on earth. Protestants typically re-interpret this to refer to an "invisible church" consisting of all "true believers" in Jesus.

Protestants, when they say the prayer, refer to the (lower-cased) "holy catholic church," using "catholic" merely in the sense of "universal," not implying any connection with the (upper-case) Catholic Church, which is based in Rome. (This is despite the fact that the term "Catholic" was already used to refer to a particular, visible Church by the second century and had already lost its broader meaning of "universal").

Despite these differences Protestants embrace the Apostles’ Creed without reluctance, seeing it as embodying basic Christian truths as they understand them.

The Lord’s Prayer

The next prayer in the rosary—Our Father or the Pater Noster (from its opening words in Latin), also known as the Lord’s Prayer—is even more acceptable to Protestants because Jesus himself taught it to his disciples.

It is given in the Bible in two slightly different versions (Matt. 6:9-13; Luke 11:2-4). The one given in Matthew is the one we say. (We won’t reproduce it here. All Christians should have it memorized.)

The Hail Mary

The next prayer in the rosary, and the prayer which is really at the center of the devotion, is the Hail Mary. Since the Hail Mary is a prayer to Mary, many Protestants assume it’s unbiblical. Quite the contrary, actually. Let’s look at it.

The prayer begins, "Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee." This is nothing other than the greeting the angel Gabriel gave Mary in Luke 1:28 (Confraternity Version). The next part reads this way:

"Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus." This was exactly what Mary’s cousin Elizabeth said to her in Luke 1:42. The only thing that has been added to these two verses are the names "Jesus" and "Mary," to make clear who is being referred to. So the first part of the Hail Mary is entirely biblical.

The second part of the Hail Mary is not taken straight from Scripture, but it is entirely biblical in the thoughts it expresses. It reads:

"Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen."

Let’s look at the first words. Some Protestants do object to saying "Holy Mary" because they claim Mary was a sinner like the rest of us. But Mary was a Christian (the first Christian, actually, the first to accept Jesus; cf. Luke 1:45), and the Bible describes Christians in general as holy. In fact, they are called saints, which means "holy ones" (Eph. 1:1, Phil. 1:1, Col. 1:2). Furthermore, as the mother of Jesus Christ, the Incarnate Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, Mary was certainly a very holy woman.

Some Protestants object to the title "Mother of God," but suffice it to say that the title doesn’t mean Mary is older than God; it means the person who was born of her was a divine person, not a human person. (Jesus is one person, the divine, but has two natures, the divine and the human; it is incorrect to say he is a human person.) The denial that Mary had God in her womb is a heresy known as Nestorianism (which claims that Jesus was two persons, one divine and one human), which has been condemned since the early 400s and which the Reformers and Protestant Bible scholars have always rejected.

Another Mediator?

The most problematic line for non-Catholics is usually the last: "pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death." Many non-Catholics think such a request denies the teaching of 1 Timothy 2:5: "For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." But in the preceding four verses (1 Tim. 2:1-4), Paul instructs Christians to pray for each other, meaning it cannot interfere with Christ’s mediatorship: "I urge that prayers, supplications, petitions, and thanksgivings be made for everyone. . . . This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior."

We know this exhortation to pray for others applies to the saints in heaven who, as Revelation 5:8 reveals, intercede for us by offering our prayers to God: "The twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

The Glory Be

The fourth prayer found in the rosary is the Glory Be, sometimes called the Gloria or Gloria Patri. The last two names are taken from the opening words of the Latin version of the prayer, which in English reads:

"Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit. As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, world without end. Amen." The Gloria is a brief hymn of praise in which all Christians can join. It has been used since the fourth century (though its present form is from the seventh) and traditionally has been recited at the end of each Psalm in the Divine Office.

The Closing Prayer

We’ve covered the opening prayers of the rosary. In fact, we’ve covered all the prayers of the rosary except the very last one, which is usually the Hail Queen (Salve Regina), sometimes called the Hail Holy Queen. It’s the most commonly recited prayer in praise of Mary, after the Hail Mary itself, and was composed at the end of the eleventh century. It generally reads like this (there are several variants):

"Hail holy Queen, Mother of mercy, our life, our sweetness, and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this vale of tears. Turn, then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us, and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary."

So those are the prayers of the rosary. Between the introductory prayers and the concluding prayer is the meat of the rosary: the decades. Each decade—there are fifteen in a full rosary (which takes about forty-five minutes to say)—is composed of ten Hail Marys. Each decade is bracketed between an Our Father and a Glory Be, so each decade actually has twelve prayers.

Each decade is devoted to a mystery regarding the life of Jesus or his mother. Here the word mystery refers to a truth of the faith, not to something incomprehensible, as in the line, "It’s a mystery to me!" The fifteen mysteries are divided into three groups of five: the Joyful, the Sorrowful, the Glorious. When people speak of "saying the rosary" they usually mean saying any set of five (which takes about fifteen minutes) rather than the recitation of all fifteen mysteries. Let’s look at the mysteries.

Meditation the Key

First we must understand that they are meditations. When Catholics recite the twelve prayers that form a decade of the rosary, they meditate on the mystery associated with that decade. If they merely recite the prayers, whether vocally or silently, they’re missing the essence of the rosary. It isn’t just a recitation of prayers, but a meditation on the grace of God. Critics, not knowing about the meditation part, imagine the rosary must be boring, uselessly repetitious, meaningless, and their criticism carries weight if you reduce the rosary to a formula. Christ forbade meaningless repetition (Matt. 6:7), but the Bible itself prescribes some prayers that involve repetition. Look at Psalms 136, which is a litany (a prayer with a recurring refrain) meant to be sung in the Jewish Temple. In the psalm the refrain is "His mercy endures forever." Sometimes in Psalms 136 the refrain starts before a sentence is finished, meaning it is more repetitious than the rosary, though this prayer was written directly under the inspiration of God.

It is the meditation on the mysteries that gives the rosary its staying power. The Joyful Mysteries are these: the Annunciation (Luke 1:26-38), the Visitation (Luke 1:40-56), the Nativity (Luke 2:6-20), the Presentation of Jesus in the Temple (Luke 2:21-39), and the Finding of the child Jesus in the Temple (Luke 2:41-51).

Then come the Sorrowful Mysteries: the Agony in the Garden (Matt. 26:36-46), the Scourging (Matt. 27:26), the Crowing with Thorns (Matt. 27:29), the Carrying of the Cross (Luke 23:26-32), and the Crucifixion (Luke 23:33-46).

The final Mysteries are the Glorious: the Resurrection (Luke 24:1-12), the Ascension (Luke 24:50-51), the Descent of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:1-4), the Assumption of Mary into heaven (Rev. 12), and her Coronation (cf. Rev. 12:1).

With the exception of the last two, each mystery is explicitly scriptural. True, the Assumption and Coronation of Mary are not explicitly stated in the Bible, but they are not contrary to it, so there is no reason to reject them out of hand. Given the scriptural basis of most of the mysteries, it’s little wonder that many Protestants, once they understand the meditations that are the essence of the rosary, happily take it up as a devotion. We’ve looked at the prayers found in the rosary and the mysteries around which it is formed. Now let’s see how it was formed historically.

The Secret of Paternoster Row

It’s commonly said that St. Dominic, the founder of the Order of Preachers (the Dominicans), instituted the rosary. Not so. Certain parts of the rosary predated Dominic; others arose only after his death.

Centuries before Dominic, monks had begun to recite all 150 psalms on a regular basis. As time went on, it was felt that the lay brothers, known as the conversi, should have some form of prayer of their own. They were distinct from the choir monks, and a chief distinction was that they were illiterate. Since they couldn’t read the psalms, they couldn’t recite them with the monks. They needed an easily remembered prayer.

The prayer first chosen was the Our Father, and, depending on circumstances, it was said either fifty or a hundred times. These conversi used rosaries to keep count, and the rosaries were known then as Paternosters ("Our Fathers").

In England there arose a craftsmen’s guild of some importance, the members of which made these rosaries. In London you can find a street, named Paternoster Row, which preserves the memory of the area where these craftsmen worked.

The rosaries that originally were used to count Our Fathers came to be used, during the twelfth century, to count Hail Marys—or, more properly, the first half of what we now call the Hail Mary. (The second half was added some time later.)

Both Catholics and non-Catholics, as they learn more about the rosary and make more frequent use of it, come to see how its meditations bring to mind the sweet fragrance not only of the Mother of God, but of Christ himself.

...from Catholic.com because class is about to start and I couldn't not put some kind of answer.... this board is my crack rock!

God Bless,

ironmonk

[Donna]

Hi, Reformation Now.

I understand how strange the recitation of the rosary may seem to you.

The full rosary consists of 150 Ave Maria's - "Hail Mary's" - (plus 3 in the introductory prayers). It is called the Psalter of Mary, as the layfolk who knew not (or who had not time to pray) the 150 psalms which the clergy daily recite, would pray the Ave's, and meditate on the prinicipal events in Our Lord's life.

The true name of the Ave Maria prayer is "The Angelic Salutation." Called thus, because it is St. Gabriel's greeting to Mary: By this Angelic Salutation has the whole world been repaired and therefore our salvation is intimately bound with devotion to it.

To all: The language Pope Pius XII used in the definition of Our Lady's Assumption was: "At the end of her earthly life", or something quite similar.

[Unshackled]

cmom, jasJis, jake, u guys SHUT DOWN unshackled.  (no offense unshackled) i would attempt to add something from my tiny tiny knowledge, but it has all been covered

Is this your only response to something you do not comprehend? When did Jesus turn His back on GENUINE queries? 1 Peter 3:15 clearly states that you are burying your head in the sand! But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,

[ironmonk]

The Angels of God Hail Mary.... are we better than the angels?

If we are Brothers in Christ, then Mary is our Mother in Christ.

We honor Christ's Father & Mother.... as it says in Luke, all ages will call her blessed.

Also, "prayer" does not equal "Worship".... Catholics ONLY worship God.

Prayer is how we stay in communion with those in Heaven... the Body of Christ is on Earth and in Heaven.

The Jews prayer for and to the Saints.... are you saying they were wrong too, when Jesus said they had the Truth?

God Bless,

ironmonk

Edited September 10, 2003 by ironmonk