What Is This All About?!

[MichaelFilo]

Todd has answered questions that some Church scholars cannot say like he can. By mere merit he deserves it. However, rules are rules.

God bless,

Mikey

[MorphRC]

[quote name='IcePrincessKRS' date='Aug 7 2004, 02:58 AM'] I think only those that have formal theology training get the Scholar title.... [/quote]
Why dont we just make it a masters while were at it.

[Laudate_Dominum]

Doesn't a Church Scholar have the authority to nominate someone as a Church Scholar?

...(pm-ing dUSt)...

[Laudate_Dominum]

Oh.. Also God has led me back to Steubenville, this time not as a scholar but as a lowly carpenter. The point is: since you (Apotheoun) live in Steubz, we could meet and have excessively long conversations about Philosophy and Theology!
I would love that.

I know a couple other guys who are crazy about such things, maybe we could form a small discussion group.

peace

[Mary's Knight, La]

if you start that i'm moving up there (wishful thinking but still a nice idea) it'd be great to sit at the feet of masters *grabs his shoe shine kit and bumps phatcatholic outta the way*

Edited August 7, 2004 by Mary's Knight, La

[MorphRC]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='Aug 7 2004, 05:34 PM'] Doesn't a Church Scholar have the authority to nominate someone as a Church Scholar?

...(pm-ing dUSt)... [/quote]
hmm

[Dusty Fro]

Well now that this post has turned into a bunch of hero worship or whatever...

I never said that those passages didn't indicate that grace was neccessary for salvation, but that they said that grace was not sufficient for salvation. The way I read them is that anyone who believes that faith and the grace of God is sufficient for salvation, let him be condemned to hell.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Dusty Fro' date='Aug 9 2004, 03:04 AM'] Well now that this post has turned into a bunch of hero worship or whatever...
[/quote]
Something about the situation makes me laugh, although I sympathize with you.

grace, faith, works. yep

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Dusty Fro' date='Aug 9 2004, 01:04 AM'] I never said that those passages didn't indicate that grace was neccessary for salvation, but that they said that grace was not sufficient for salvation.  The way I read them is that anyone who believes that faith and the grace of God is sufficient for salvation, let him be condemned to hell. [/quote]
No, the Fathers of Trent are not saying that. What they are saying is that if a man has faith alone, which is not formed by charity, he is not saved. Nowhere, in either the [u][url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=16965&view=findpost&p=290044"]Decree on Justification[/url][/u], nor in the canons appended to the Decree, does it deny that man is saved by grace alone, because that is precisely the teaching of Trent. The Tridentine Fathers teach that man is saved by grace alone, but not by an unformed faith alone.

As St. Prosper said, "That some men are saved is the gift (i.e., grace) of Him (i.e., God), who saves; that some men are lost, is the fault of those who are lost." Salvation is by grace alone, but grace perfects, restores, and elevates nature, and so it empowers man to act in the supernatural order. The Catholic Church teaches that we are saved by grace alone, through faith, hope, and charity. [cf. Council of Trent, [u]Decree on Justification[/u], chap. x]

God bless,
Todd

Edited August 9, 2004 by Apotheoun

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='Aug 7 2004, 02:38 AM'] Oh.. Also God has led me back to Steubenville, this time not as a scholar but as a lowly carpenter. [/quote]
St. Joseph and Jesus seem to have exalted your "lowly" profession

consider yourself doing the work of the Holy Family!

[Guest JeffCR07]

Laudate, Apotheoun, how old are you guys and where did you study? I'm only 18 (a sophomore), but I'm looking to get a Doctorate in theology when I finish undergrad, and I'm having a really hard time finding places that a.) give doctorates, b.) are orthodox, and c.) arn't in another country. I don't know what level of crazy scholarship you two are at, but I figure you might know of someplace reliable.

Also, in light of the "hero" comments before: you two are my heroes,

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Aug 10 2004, 01:45 AM'] St. Joseph and Jesus seem to have exalted your "lowly" profession

consider yourself doing the work of the Holy Family! [/quote]
you rock brutha! I really need to meditate on that more, it was my original inspiration, but the daily grind can wear on a man.

God bless you

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='JeffCR07' date='Aug 10 2004, 11:46 AM'] Laudate, Apotheoun, how old are you guys and where did you study? I'm only 18 (a sophomore), but I'm looking to get a Doctorate in theology when I finish undergrad, and I'm having a really hard time finding places that a.) give doctorates, b.) are orthodox, and c.) arn't in another country. I don't know what level of crazy scholarship you two are at, but I figure you might know of someplace reliable.

Also, in light of the "hero" comments before: you two are my heroes, 

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff [/quote]
Jeff,

I just turned 26 (I feel so old, you have no idea , and I'm mostly self-taught with the exception of my years at Franny (Franciscan University of Steubenville).
I can recommend this school for sure, although there are others. I have always wanted to study in Europe, for example at the Gregorian or the Angelicum.

As far as schools that are orthodox, give doctorates and aren't in other countries I actually can't think of any (perhaps some seminaries). I know of schools that match these criteria that are relatively orthodox. Perhaps someone else would be better at answering this, I actually don't pay enough attention to this sort of thing. I'm too busy reading volumes of jargon so I can sound smart on the internet. hehe, j/k

peace.

p.s. Pray that you get good roommates in college. I had three roommates in a row who were geniuses (I'd bet money on that) who taught me many things. There is nothing like nightly four hour conversations on problems in philosophy (with geniuses!) to exercise your mind.

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Aug 4 2004, 09:49 PM'] Oh it's quite relevant, because the doctrine of the [i]Trinity[/i] is present in scripture, but the doctrine of [i]total depravity[/i] is not. [/quote]
Ephesians 2:1-10

As for you, [b]you were dead in your transgressions and sins[/b], 2in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. [b]3All of us[/b] also lived among them at one time, [b]gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature[1] and following its desires and thoughts. [/b]Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were [b]dead in transgressions[/b]--it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

This is total depravity. Total depravity is not the belief that man is as sinful as he will ever be, but rather, that he is, without God's quickening grace, able to bring himself back to life from the dead. This is why, Lorraine Boettner, in his work "The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination", prefers to call the doctrine "Total Inability" rather than "Total Depravity", because the word "Depraved" carries a connotation in todays language which is not entirely faithful to the Reformers teaching on the matter.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Aug 12 2004, 08:11 PM'] Ephesians 2:1-10

As for you, [b]you were dead in your transgressions and sins[/b], 2in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. [b]3All of us[/b] also lived among them at one time, [b]gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature[1] and following its desires and thoughts. [/b]Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were [b]dead in transgressions[/b]--it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

This is total depravity. Total depravity is not the belief that man is as sinful as he will ever be, but rather, that he is, without God's quickening grace, able to bring himself back to life from the dead. This is why, Lorraine Boettner, in his work "The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination", prefers to call the doctrine "Total Inability" rather than "Total Depravity", because the word "Depraved" carries a connotation in todays language which is not entirely faithful to the Reformers teaching on the matter. [/quote]
ICTHUS,

The problem is this, you read scripture in the light of the 450 year old tradition of John Calvin, and I read scripture in the light of the 2,000 year old Apostolic Tradition of the Catholic Church. Scripture does not teach that man's nature is totally depraved, and thus I will not agree with you on this topic. I, unlike the followers of Calvin, am not a Manichaean dualist. I hold that nature is created by God, and that it is good, because He has made it. Nature cannot be depraved, nor is man intrinsically evil, for to believe that is to be a Manichaean, and not a Christian. Now, I do believe that because of the fall, man's nature, wounded by the loss of the preternatural gifts intended to perfect it, cannot achieve, under its own power, eternal life. Moreover, for man to be saved, he must be raised above his nature, and above his natural existence, into the supernatural life of the Triune God, and this can only be accomplished through the gift of God's grace.

God bless,
Todd

P.S. - One other thing, I don't use the NIV Bible, and the reason I don't is that it was translated by Evangelical scholars in order to support various Protestant doctrinal theories, including the idea that nature is sinful. Thus in the quotation you've given above, the following translation is given: ". . . also lived among them at one time, [b]gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. [/b]" What the NIV translators have translated as "sinful nature" is the Greek word, "sarx," which is accurately translated as the English word "flesh." Thus, nowhere does scripture call nature in itself "sinful." In fact, sin is by definition "unnatural."

P.P.S. - A Catholic can accept the technical term "total inability" in relation to man's natural status before God, but can never accept the concept of "total depravity." The reason that a Catholic can accept the first term is because salvation is purely by God's grace, which is a supernatural gift imparted to man in order to restore, perfect, and elevate him above his own natural existence. Thus, by the power of grace given to man in Christ Jesus, the divine likeness disfigured by sin is restored, and man is elevated into the very life and energy of the Trinity, i.e., he is divinized. But the second term, i.e., "total depravity," is not acceptable, because nature is not depraved.

Edited August 13, 2004 by Apotheoun