What Is This All About?!

[qfnol31]

I think that's the longest post I've ever seen.

[Aloysius]

Apotheon Locuta Est.
Causa Finita Est.

(forgive my crappy latin)

lol

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='qfnol31' date='Aug 1 2004, 01:21 PM'] I think that's the longest post I've ever seen. [/quote]
Well it is the Tridentine Decree on Justification in its entirety.

[Dusty Fro]

[quote]The Catholic Church has always taught that salvation is by grace alone, but she will not subscribe to the sola fide heresy of the Protestant Reformers.
[/quote]

But that's exactly what it speaks against in that passage, that anyone who says that salvation is by grace alone will be excommunicated. The idea of salvation by grace is Biblical. Paul himself says: "Galations 2:21 I am not one of those who treats the grace of God as meaningless. For if we could be saved by keeping the law, then there was no need for Christ to die."

Anathema means excommunication, I looked it up. Now you tell me what your hoity toity latin means.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Dusty Fro' date='Aug 1 2004, 01:31 PM'][quote]The Catholic Church has always taught that salvation is by grace alone, but she will not subscribe to the sola fide heresy of the Protestant Reformers.[/quote]
But that's exactly what it speaks against in that passage, that anyone who says that salvation is by grace alone will be excommunicated.  The idea of salvation by grace is Biblical.  Paul himself says: "Galations 2:21 I am not one of those who treats the grace of God as meaningless. For if we could be saved by keeping the law, then there was no need for Christ to die."

Anathema means excommunication, I looked it up.  Now you tell me what your hoity toity latin means. [/quote]
Please read the entire Decree on Justification, the Church teaches that grace alone saves a man. Grace is the infusion of the divine life into man, which redeems him from sin and elevates him into the very life and glory of the Triune God. Until you read the entire document, and stop focusing on one canon taken out of context, you will not grasp the teaching of the Church.

None of the canons condemn the proposition that we are saved by grace, for it is grace that produces both faith and works in a man.

As far as the word "anathema" is concerned, it is means that the proposition condemned in the canon is in error, and if one holds that position, he is excommunicated from the Church.

Edited August 1, 2004 by Apotheoun

[PedroX]

Dusty,

Al's latin roughly says "Apotheoun has spoken, case is finished"

I also recommend that you read the decree in its fullness and then re-read the canons that seem to be giving you trouble. No where does the church deny that salvation is by the grace of God. In fact, this is what the Reformers were saying. By saying that salvation exists through faith alone (sola fides) they were teaching that salvation started with us. For, the emphasis shifts from God's grace to our faith. If Luther, et al could have stayed with Sola Gratia we might have avoided this whole mess.

Icthus,

I understand you are not Catholic, but that doesn't give you the right to be rude. Please avoid using words like "perversion" to describe the church's teaching. Martin Luther said "one cannot have God as their father without haveing the Church as their mother." I for one don't like anyone calling my mother a pervert.

peace...

[MichaelFilo]

Todd has a certain authority about him, and the super classy avatar that can be found on the Vatican's website makes him seem very professional.

God bless,

Mikey

[cappie]

The Vatican Website has a number of articles about the joint declaration with the Lutheran Federation about Justification
[url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/sub-index/index_lutheran-fed.htm"]The Holy See[/url]

[Dusty Fro]

A classy icon does not a genius make.

[Aloysius]

no, but beautifully written intelligent posts DO a genius make.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='Dusty Fro' date='Aug 1 2004, 05:52 AM'] Sounds to be like they're degrading the value of God's grace. I think it's purely reactionary, and definitely not commissioned by God. [/quote]
You are taking things out of context.

Here is a link, there is a lot to the Council of Trent... Read it all if you really want to understand it.


[url="http://www.catholic-pages.com/dir/trent.asp"]http://www.catholic-pages.com/dir/trent.asp[/url]


It does not degrade the value of God's grace.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[ironmonk]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Aug 1 2004, 04:17 PM'] My sentiments exactly. This is exactly why the [url="http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/indexf.html"]Westminster Confession of Faith[/url] was formulated, to combat Rome's perversion of the Holy Gospel. [/quote]
How is something from the group established by Christ a perversion when Christ said it would NEVER be overcome. The perversion then would be Westminster. They left the group. They are Acts 20:29-30

"Perversion" is deviating from what is considered right and correct. The Church has always been right and correct as Christ promised. The group established by Christ will never be perverted in it's teaching. I believe Christ, I wish others did as well.


You would have different sentiments if you actually studied it.

Edited August 2, 2004 by ironmonk

[ironmonk]

[quote]Canon 9. If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification...let him be anathema. (excommunicated)

Canon 11. If anyone says that men are justified either by the sole imputation of the righteousness of Christ or by the sole remission of sins, to the exclusion of the grace and charity which is poured forth in their hearts by the Holy Ghost and remains in them, or also that the grace by which we are justified is only the good will of God, let him be anathema.

Canon 12.If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy, which remits sins for Christ's sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, let him be anathema.[/quote]

[b]St. Matt 16:27[/b] [color=red]For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father's glory, and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct. [/color]

[b]2 Corin 11:15 [/b]
So it is not strange that his ministers also masquerade as ministers of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

[b]St. Matt 10:22[/b]
[color=red]You will be hated by all because of my name, but whoever endures to the end will be saved.[/color]

[b]St. Matt 24:13 [/b]
[color=red]But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved. [/color]

[b]James 2:20 [/b]Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?





[quote]Canon 24. If anyone says that the righteousness received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works, but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of the increase, let him be anathema.[/quote]

[b]1 Corin 3:12[/b]
If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw,
[b]13 [/b]the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one's work.
[b]14 [/b]If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage.
[b]15 [/b]But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, 8 but only as through fire.


[b]St. Matt 6:19[/b]
"[color=red]Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and decay destroy, and thieves break in and steal. [/color]
[b]20 [/b][color=red]But store up treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor decay destroys, nor thieves break in and steal.[/color]

If we can store up treasures in heaven, then this Canon is correct.

[b]St. Luke 6:23[/b]
[color=red]Rejoice and leap for joy on that day! Behold, your reward will be great in heaven. For their ancestors treated the prophets in the same way.[/color]

Rewards in heaven will vary. Some will have more, some will have less. This canon holds true, as all of them do.


[quote]Canon 30. If anyone says that after the reception of the grace of justification the guilt is so remitted and the debt of eternal punishment so blotted out to every repentant sinner, that no debt of temporal punishment remains to be discharged either in this world or in purgatory before the gates of heaven can be opened, let him be anathema.[/quote]


[b]1 John 5:16 [/b]
If anyone sees his brother sinning, [b]if the sin is not deadly[/b], he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray.

[b]Rev 21:27 [/b]
but nothing unclean will enter it, nor any (one) who does abominable things or tells lies. Only those will enter whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.


Nothing Unclean can enter Heaven, but not all sin is deadly (1 John 5:16) therefore we must have our sin purged (Isaiah 6:6-7) before we enter Heaven if we are guilty of lesser sins.


Again, this canon holds true.


A few other canons [url="http://history.hanover.edu/early/trent/ct06jc.htm"]http://history.hanover.edu/early/trent/ct06jc.htm[/url] :

CANON XIX.-If any one saith, that nothing besides faith is commanded in the Gospel; that other things are indifferent, neither commanded nor prohibited, but free; or, that the ten commandments nowise appertain to Christians; let him be anathema.

CANON XX.-If any one saith, that the man who is justified and how perfect soever, is not bound to observe the commandments of God and of the Church, but only to believe; as if indeed the Gospel were a bare and absolute promise of eternal life, without the condition of observing the commandments ; let him be anathema.

CANON XXI.-If any one saith, that Christ Jesus was given of God to men, as a redeemer in whom to trust, and not also as a legislator whom to obey; let him be anathema.

[b]St. John 14:15 [/b]
"[color=red]If you love me, you will keep my commandments.[/color]


CANON XXIII.-lf any one saith, that a man once justified can sin no more, nor lose grace, and that therefore he that falls and sins was never truly justified; or, on the other hand, that he is able, during his whole life, to avoid all sins, even those that are venial,-except by a special privilege from God, as the Church holds in regard of the Blessed Virgin; let him be anathema.


[b]St. Matt 13:19 [/b]
[color=red]The seed sown on the path is the one who hears the word of the kingdom without understanding it, and the evil one comes and steals away what was sown in his heart.[/color]
[b]20 [/b][color=red]The seed sown on rocky ground is the one who hears the word and receives it at once with joy. [/color]
[b]21 [/b][color=red]But he has no root and lasts only for a time. When some tribulation or persecution comes because of the word, he immediately falls away. [/color]
[b]22 [/b][color=red]The seed sown among thorns is the one who hears the word, but then worldly anxiety and the lure of riches choke the word and it bears no fruit.[/color]
[b]23 [/b][color=red]But the seed sown on rich soil is the one who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and yields a hundred or sixty or thirtyfold[/color]."


[b]Romans 11:22[/b] "See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off"

[b]Hebrews 10:26[/b]
If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins 27 but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.
[b]28 [/b]Anyone who rejects the law of Moses is put to death without pity on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
[b]29 [/b]Do you not think that a much worse punishment is due the one who has contempt for the Son of God, considers unclean the covenant-blood by which he was consecrated, and insults the spirit of grace?

[b]2 Peter 2:20[/b]
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of (our) Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
[b]21 [/b]For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.
[b]22 [/b]What is expressed in the true proverb has happened to them, "The dog returns to its own vomit," and "A bathed sow returns to wallowing in the mire."




God Bless,
ironmonk

[Broccolifish]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Aug 1 2004, 02:35 PM'] Apotheoun, I've heard the term 'theological nominalism' bounced around quite a bit.

Could you explain what you mean by it, please? [/quote]
It's supposed to be a "dirty word," ICTHUS. Nominalism was a prevailing metaphysic in the Middle Ages that reduced all universals simply to naming conventions; that is, there were no true universals but only particulars which are categorized by people who name them. This was an attempt to solve the problem of universals, but it really only translated it from the realm of matter to the realm of thought. Instead of assigning [i]things[/i] to categories, we now must ask how we account for categorizing [i]thoughts[/i] according to universals in thought. After all, the nominalist may claim that there are no universals, but he relies on them in every act, presuming "types" of events and "types" of things. A "man" is considered different than a "woman" because of a universal [i]idea[/i], even if there is no realm of forms like Plato envisioned, where "manness" resides. I believe that William of Ockham (famous for his phrasing of the principle of Parsimony, popularly called "Ockham's Razor") was an important philosopher of this school.

To accuse the Reformers of Theological Nominalism is to misunderstand both what they taught and what nominalism claimed. Martin Luther was, to be sure, a nominalist in at least some way. Apotheoun is not making any new claim. In fact, by rejecting the Platonic and Aristotelian answers to the problem of Universals, it would be difficult to classify Luther as anything [i]but[/i] a nominalist. However, how Apotheoun [i]defines[/i] "theological nominalism" shows linguistic revision. He has also misunderstood the Reformation phrase [i]simul iustus et peccator[/i], which does not intend to say that we are completely sinful and completely justified at the same time; rather, it means that we are simultaneously justified and [i]still sinners[/i]. To quote the Heidelberg Disputation, 1518:

[i]The Law says, 'Do this,' and it is never done; the Gospel says, 'Believe this,' and everything is already done.[/i]

The work of salvation, justification and sanctification both, is accomplished. It is worked in Christ. Those who are being saved [i]will[/i] be saved, and His Will will not be frustrated. Christ's death works in two ways for the believer: First, he is [i]declared righteous in spite of his sin[/i]. Second, [i]he is made righteous[/i] by the work of the Holy Spirit in sanctification. The Reformed doctrines of grace do not allow for Apotheoun's accusation of Nominalism, however, because the sinner, when regenerated, [b]is[/b] a [i]new[/i] creation; the Holy Spirit within him, he is not the sinner he was, sin though he still may. He is now a saint, righteous by Christ's work. It should be seen that what Apotheoun accuses the Reformers of is really nothing more than G.K. Chesterton calling Calvinism "The New Manichaeism." That is, it's hogwash.

[PedroX]

Brocolli,

If you are indeed positing a real perspective of the reformers and their teachings, how do you square your definition of the nature of man with the doctrine of total depravity? (especially as deliniated by J. Calvin)

peace...