M.SIGGA Posted August 1, 2004 Share Posted August 1, 2004 [quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Aug 1 2004, 12:51 AM'] You have overlooked one thing. By voting democrat as far as presidents go, aren't you supporting abortion? I do believe you are. While in the end it may not matter as to whom you vote for, the fact that you were in support matters. If we were talking on a secular level your arguement would be semi-valid, but it's really not on the moral level. [/quote] agreeable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelFilo Posted August 1, 2004 Author Share Posted August 1, 2004 [quote]agreeable [/quote] Well thats a load off. No offense, it's just in the Kerry is the Antichrist thread ( which has a funny name ) you kinda seemed like, you have to really put some thought into this. And I was all like, I'd do it, but ya know, somethings the Church just says no to. anyways, rambling. God bless, Mikey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
traichuoi Posted August 1, 2004 Share Posted August 1, 2004 [quote name='Aloysius' date='Jul 31 2004, 07:53 PM'] death penalty and war is NOT a non-negotiable (at least according to the Bride of Christ) Cardinal Ratzinger said Catholics can have a variety of opinions in regards to a specific war going on or the application of the death penalty. here's a good artical about the death penalty by Avery Cardinal Dulles: [url="http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0104/articles/dulles.html"]http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0104...les/dulles.html[/url] [/quote] in the "Voter's Guide for Serious Catholics" death penalty is a non-negotiable isn't it? unless i'm wrong, that's what i thought i read. i didn't say war either, i only meant the death penalty... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted August 1, 2004 Share Posted August 1, 2004 (edited) [quote name='traichuoi' date='Aug 1 2004, 12:56 AM'] in the "Voter's Guide for Serious Catholics" death penalty is a non-negotiable isn't it? unless i'm wrong, that's what i thought i read. i didn't say war either, i only meant the death penalty... [/quote] The right of the State to execute a criminal is a part of the immutable natural moral law, and thus no power on earth can declare the death penalty in itself to be immoral. The Church can ask that public authorities limit themselves to non-lethal means when punishing a criminal, but the right of the State to execute a criminal remains intact and is unchangeable. That is why Cardinal Ratzinger stated that Catholics who support the death penalty may receive Holy Communion. Let me quote once again what Cardinal Ratzinger said: "[b][i]Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia[/i][/b]. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of [b][i]capital punishment[/i][/b] or on the decision to wage war, [b][i]he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion[/i][/b]. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. [b][i]There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, [u]but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia[/u][/i][/b]." [Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, [u]Letter to the US Bishops on Communion[/u], no. 3] The Church has always distinguished between the absolute right to life of every [i]innocent[/i] human being, and the right of the State to execute criminals because of the heinous nature of the crimes that they have committed. This distinction is a part of the immutable natural moral law and divine revelation. [cf. Romans 13:1-5] Thus, no power on earth, not even the Church's Magisterium, can change this fact. Clearly then, a Catholic can vote for a politician who supports the judicious use of the death penalty. Edited August 1, 2004 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picchick Posted August 1, 2004 Share Posted August 1, 2004 Abortion aside, there is many other reasons that I do not support Kerry. 1. He is a weak man thus demonstrated by his inconsistences. He says that he is pro-life but does not want to force that on anyone else. He stated within the past few months that he belives the life of a person begins at conception. O.K. If he believes that this is correct and true then why does he not standing up for it? It isn't like he believes that pro-choice is the right thing. To me, if you cannot stand up for what you believe and know as true then you are a weak person who will be easily swayed by popular opinion. He also has said that he was against the war in Iraq but then said he wasn't. So which is it? 2. He takes all that Bush has done and says that he will do better than that. O.k. What will you do differently and how will you accomplish it? I know that he doesn't want to give specifics but it is possible not to and still answer the quesiton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Just Posted August 1, 2004 Share Posted August 1, 2004 (edited) There is a big misunderstanding of what freedom is in this country. Look at canada, they are totally free. Yet you do not see all the abominations and chaos there. They must be doing something right. Yet at the same time america claims it's the only free country in the world.. ok so in other words, if a country doesnt have legalized abortion, homosexual marriages and a obession with pornography and violence it's not free? Edited August 1, 2004 by MC Just Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted August 1, 2004 Share Posted August 1, 2004 CANADA is your example!!??? they're worse. you can get arrested for "hate speech" simply for speaking out against homosexuality they don't allow Fox News and last I heard they also didn't allow EWTN they do have legalized abortion. they either have or are working on having legalized same sex marriage. and I'm sure they have pornography and violence as well. Canada is one of my least favorite countries in the whole world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nikkan_hanil Posted August 1, 2004 Share Posted August 1, 2004 zwerg is a girl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
traichuoi Posted August 1, 2004 Share Posted August 1, 2004 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='Aug 1 2004, 04:01 AM'] The right of the State to execute a criminal is a part of the immutable natural moral law, and thus no power on earth can declare the death penalty in itself to be immoral. The Church can ask that public authorities limit themselves to non-lethal means when punishing a criminal, but the right of the State to execute a criminal remains intact and is unchangeable. That is why Cardinal Ratzinger stated that Catholics who support the death penalty may receive Holy Communion. Let me quote once again what Cardinal Ratzinger said: "[b][i]Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia[/i][/b]. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of [b][i]capital punishment[/i][/b] or on the decision to wage war, [b][i]he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion[/i][/b]. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. [b][i]There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, [u]but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia[/u][/i][/b]." [Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, [u]Letter to the US Bishops on Communion[/u], no. 3] The Church has always distinguished between the absolute right to life of every [i]innocent[/i] human being, and the right of the State to execute criminals because of the heinous nature of the crimes that they have committed. This distinction is a part of the immutable natural moral law and divine revelation. [cf. Romans 13:1-5] Thus, no power on earth, not even the Church's Magisterium, can change this fact. Clearly then, a Catholic can vote for a politician who supports the judicious use of the death penalty. [/quote] thanks Apotheoun...i like the way you write! reveals Truth so well... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocco Posted August 1, 2004 Share Posted August 1, 2004 I must have missed something: When did the Pope say that it was a mortal sin to support someone who worked for the death penalty? St. Thomas stated that if an individual commits a crime and poses a threat to society(the people who are working toward heaven) he/she has waived the rights of a person and can be put to death with out sin. I also remind readers that very few criminals are put to death via the death penalty. By the time that a criminal is put to death in our society they(the criminal) has had plenty of time to repent and make a good confession. So refusing to vote for George Bush because he supports the death penalty is crazy. Think about all the terrible things kerry has done but yet we as Catholics are hung up on who to vote for because Bush supports the death penalty. It is my opinion that a Catholic who supports John Kerry is not a solid, well grounded Catholic! Rocco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted August 1, 2004 Share Posted August 1, 2004 (edited) [quote name='Rocco' date='Aug 1 2004, 03:42 PM'] I must have missed something: When did the Pope say that it was a mortal sin to support someone who worked for the death penalty? St. Thomas stated that if an individual commits a crime and poses a threat to society(the people who are working toward heaven) he/she has waived the rights of a person and can be put to death with out sin. I also remind readers that very few criminals are put to death via the death penalty. By the time that a criminal is put to death in our society they(the criminal) has had plenty of time to repent and make a good confession. So refusing to vote for George Bush because he supports the death penalty is crazy. Think about all the terrible things kerry has done but yet we as Catholics are hung up on who to vote for because Bush supports the death penalty. It is my opinion that a Catholic who supports John Kerry is not a solid, well grounded Catholic! Rocco [/quote] That was precisely my point, the Pope has never said, nor can he say, that supporting the death penalty is intrinsically immoral, because the right of the State to execute a criminal is a part of the natural moral law and divine revelation. The Magisterium is the guarding of the [i]depositum fidei[/i], and so it has no power to alter what has been revealed, nor can the Magisterium change the immutable natural moral law. Now, it is true that the Pope has asked that the public authorities restrict punishment to non-lethal means when this is possible, but this prudential judgment of the Pope does not mean that the State can never execute a criminal. Thus, a Catholic can support a politician who advocates the judicious use of the death penalty. But a Catholic can never support a person who advocates the crimes of abortion and euthanasia. As for your concluding remark, "It is my opinion that a Catholic who supports John Kerry is not a solid, well grounded Catholic," I agree with you. I don't see how a Catholic who understands his faith could vote for a man who supports as a "right" under law, the murder of the innocent, through the crimes of abortion and euthanasia, or who supports stem cell research using the remains of aborted children, or who supports homosexual marriage, or protections under law for deviant sexual behavior, etc.; to vote for such a man would be a grave sin. God bless, Todd Edited August 2, 2004 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Just Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 (edited) [quote name='Aloysius' date='Aug 1 2004, 11:59 AM'] CANADA is your example!!??? they're worse. you can get arrested for "hate speech" simply for speaking out against homosexuality they don't allow Fox News and last I heard they also didn't allow EWTN they do have legalized abortion. they either have or are working on having legalized same sex marriage. and I'm sure they have pornography and violence as well. Canada is one of my least favorite countries in the whole world. [/quote] Last I heard, some places in Canada you can actually leave your doors unlocked. (Try doing that here and your whole house will disapear.) You flick on the tv there and it's not any where near as bad as it is here. I'm not saying the place is perfect, i'm saying it's not as bad. I also heard that they are trying to get homosexual marriages there, they dont have em yet. Edited August 2, 2004 by MC Just Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 [quote name='MC Just' date='Aug 1 2004, 01:39 PM'] There is a big misunderstanding of what freedom is in this country. Look at canada, they are totally free. Yet you do not see all the abominations and chaos there. They must be doing something right. Yet at the same time america claims it's the only free country in the world.. ok so in other words, if a country doesnt have legalized abortion, homosexual marriages and a obession with pornography and violence it's not free? [/quote] Totally FREE?? This is the country that can fine you for quoting the BIBLE on homosexuality in a newspaper. Canadians do not have free speech. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Just Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 ok i didnt know that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Just Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 I'll just shutup now.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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