Pre-augustine Just War?

[Aloysius]

Hey, I'm just wondering if anyone knows whether there's any pre-Augustine Just War idea in the Church? I mean, I know Jesus said if someone doesn't have a sword they should sell their cloak and buy one which clearly supports self-defense and His lack of advice to the Roman Soldiers against participating in war He at least didn't consider it that important to try to get soldiers to not be part of the army.. but I'm just wondering if any early Christians 1st, 2nd, 3rd century had a concept of a just war, or were they against all war?

For the record I of course side with CHURCH TEACHING on this one and believe we should work to avoid all war but war can be justified and if it is justified Christians should be obliged to support it, and I also recognize Church Teaching as Cardinal Ratzinger clarified that Catholics can have varying opinions as to the just status of specific wars. I'm just wondering if the EARLY EARLY Church had any position.

Pax

[-I---Love]

I can answer this one for you Al

the EARLY CHURCH FATHERS WERE PACIFIST

NO JUST WAR

NO WAR

PACIFIST

:cheer: :angel: :hearts: :jesus:

but seriously does anyone have any specific info. about the early church fathers position, mention, or lack thereof concerning war or any concept as Al asked about a just war???

[Aloysius]

hehe.

well, i wouldn't call them PACIFISTS, but I have yet to see any mention of a just war before Augustine.

however, they of course would follow Jesus' teaching and thus be for self-defense as Jesus commanded if one doesn't have a sword they should sell their cloak and buy one, and I think they believed in the death penalty

read this [url="http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0104/articles/dulles.html"]http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0104...les/dulles.html[/url]

notice the New Testament God even uses capital punishment Acts 5:1–11
and Romans 10:28 has somethin to say about breaking the law and death
it also mentions that the Church Fathers are unanimously FOR the death penalty.

let's see, I'm gonna search around and see if i can find some Church Fathers talkin bout war...

okay, let's see if i can try to answer my own question. i am finding alot about how Christians should not join pagan armies in pre-constinian Church Fathers, but not alot about the idea of war being always wrong.

[b]Origen[/b]
"This would be our answer to those who are strangers to our faith and who ask us to take up arms and to kill men for the common good … Christians fight as priests and worshippers of God while others fight as soldiers. Christians fight through their prayers to God on behalf of [b]those doing battle in a just cause [/b][b]and on behalf of our emperor who is ruling justly in order that all opposition and hostility toward those who are acting rightly may be eliminated[/b]. … We do not go out on the campaign with him [the emperor] even if he insists, but we do battle on his behalf by raising a special army of piety through our petitions to God"
[i]Against Celsus 8.73[/i]

"if wars are ever necessary, they ought to be just and ordered"[i]Against Celsus 4.82[/i]

okay, so Origen's position was that Chrisians should not join the army, which I also find in Turtillian and Hippolytus. This is understandable to me, they instructed Christians not to join a pagan army.

[b]Turtillian[/b]
" We are not allowed to wear any uniform that symbolizes a sinful act" [u][b][i]On Idolatry `9.3[/i][/b][/u] A Roman Uniform at the time symbolized an idolatrous nation.

Lanctantius is a transition. He starts out in a world full of only pagan armies and writes "It is not right for a just man to serve in the army since justice itself is his form of service. … It does not matter whether you kill a man with the sword or with a word since it is killing itself that is prohibited. And so there must be no exception to this command of God. Killing a human being whom God wills to be inviolable, is always wrong" [i]Divine Institutes 6.20.16-17[/i] But after he sees a war which is perpetrated in order to stop peresecution and injustice, he writes "Courage is good if you are fighting for your country, but it is evil if you are fighting against your country"[i]Epitome 61.3[/i] and " "On those who continue to afflict the just in other parts of the world that same omnipotent Father will wreak vengeance for their wrong doing " [i]Divine Institutes 1.1.14[/i], which is his hope that more Christians will be liberated by Constantine's war.

And thus, when Christians are now in contact with affairs of state and in a position to see good liberating war, not war of pagan armies who persecute Christians, we see Athanasius "One is not supposed to kill, but killing the enemy in battle is both lawful and praiseworthy. For this reason individuals who have distinguished themselves in war are considered worthy of great honors, and monuments are put up to celebrate their accomplishments. Thus, at one particular time, and under one set of circumstances, an act is not permitted, but when the time and conditions are right, it is both allowed and condoned" [i]Letter to Amun, PG 26:1173[/i]

Ambrose praises soldiers who "protects one's country from destruction [rather] than protecting oneself from danger, and that exerting oneself for one's country is much superior to leading a peaceful life of leisure with all the pleasures it involves " [i]On the Duties of the Clergy 3.3.23[/i]

And then we get to Augustine.

well, The ECFs can't be called PACIFISTS. During the persecution, they all said Christians cannot join pagan armies. After the Constantinian liberation, they saw war in a different light, war that could be justified.

[popestpiusx]

The problem is that prior to Augustine there was very little reason for the Church to develop a just war doctrine. Catholicism was illegal and so there was very little political involvement. As a result, issues like "just war" and othere political issues rarely came up.

[Pio Nono]

JMJ
7/31 - St. Ignatius Loyola

I know that at St. Martin of Tours Catholic Church in Louisville, KY, there is a body of a martyr lying in state underneath one of the high altars...I forget his name, exactly, but he was a commander of a Christian maniple (I think...) of Roman soldiers during the 3rd century AD.

I don't know if that tells you anything, but the Roman government was willing to create an entire maniple (60 men) for Christians.

[popestpiusx]

His name is St. Magnus. He was King over a Roman province. His wife is under the altar on the left side of the Church.

Both relics were donated to St. Martins by your namesake, Blessed Pius IX.