If The Thief Was In Paradise That Day...

[Cathurian]

Here's something that's been bothering me. Jesus said to the thief on the cross that "today he would be with Jesus in Paradise." But Jesus died, and was dead for three days, so how was the thief with Jesus in Paradise that day? Wouldn't Jesus be somewhere else?

[Aloysius]

There's a difference between
"I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise"
and
"I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise"

The Greek doesn't indicate where that comma should be. I think Jesus was saying I say to you today. It seems like a way Jesus would put things.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

Time in the world is different than time in eternity. Somebody else will know more though.

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='Cathurian' date='Jul 30 2004, 12:15 PM'] Here's something that's been bothering me. Jesus said to the thief on the cross that "today he would be with Jesus in Paradise." But Jesus died, and was dead for three days, so how was the thief with Jesus in Paradise that day? Wouldn't Jesus be somewhere else? [/quote]
cathurian,

a similar question is often raised regarding Gen 2:17, where God says to Adam and Eve:

--But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for [b]in the day[/b] that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

it says "in the day" here, which we would naturally take as "immediately," yet we know that Adam lived to be 930 years old (Gen 5:5). in a similar vein, Jesus says "today you will be with me," yet we know that this could not be until 3 days after his death on the cross.

my "Hard Sayings of the Bible" has this to say about the verse from Gen 2:17, and i think the same commentary can be applied to the words of Jesus, since a similar phrase is being used.[list]
[*]It is just as naive to insist that the phrase "in the day" means that on that very day death would occur. A little knowledge of the Hebrew idiom will relieve the tension here as well. For example, in 1 Kings 2:37 King Solomon warned a seditious Shimei, "The day you leave [Jerusalem] and cross the Kidron Valley [which is immediately outside the city walls on the east side of the city], you can be sure you will die." Neither the 1 Kings nor the Genesis text implies [i]immediacy of action[/i] on that very same day; instead they point to the [i]certainty of the predicted consequence[/i] that would be set in motion by the act initiated on that day. Alternate wordings include [i]at the time when[/i], [i]at that time[/i], [i]now when[/i] and [i]the day [when][/i] (see Gen 5:1; Ex 6:28;10:28;32:34).
[/list]i hope this helps............pax christi,
phatcatholic

[Cure of Ars]

This is a very interesting topic. Paradise was not heaven but the place where the righteous went when they died before Jesus opened the gates of Heaven. When Jesus did open the gates of heaven then Heaven became known as Paradise [2 Corinthians 12:2-4].

[quote]
[b]Q: Lately, it has been a point of contention on a popular Protestant radio program that Jesus did not descend into hell. The host points out that Jesus said to the thief on the cross, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise" (Luke 23:43). Why then does the creed say that Jesus descended into hell?[/b]


A: Because that's where paradise was at the time. Paradise -- the place of the God's righteous ones -- was not at that time located in heaven. It was a the Ascension of Christ that paradise was relocated to heaven. The Catechism of the Catholic Church records,

"[T]he souls of all the saints . . . since the Ascension of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ into heaven -- have been, are and will be in heaven, in the heavenly Kingdom and celestial paradise with Christ, joined to the company of the holy angels. Since the Passion and death of our Lord Jesus Christ, these souls have seen and do see the divine essence with an intuitive vision, and even face to face, without the mediation of any creature" (CCC 1023).

Prior to this time, paradise was located in hell.

What's that you say? Hell is the place of the damned. How could paradise possibly be there? Ah, you reveal that you are a child of the twentieth century. In our day, the English word "hell" has come to take on the idea of being the place of the damned, but in prior eras, the word merely indicated the place of the dead in general, not a place of torment in particular. The original German term from which we get "hell" simply meant where the dead are.
[/quote]


[url="http://www.cin.org/users/james/questions/q103.htm"]http://www.cin.org/users/james/questions/q103.htm[/url]



The following is not from a Catholic source but I think it is true.

[quote]...The New Testament picks up where the Old Testament left off by progressively developing the concept of what happens to the soul of man after death.
...In Luke 16:19-31... the rich man was directly said to be 'in Hades' (v. 23), the phrase 'Abraham's bosom' to which the angels carried Lazarus (vv. 22,23) must be interpreted as the section of Hades reserved for the righteous.....
During the intertestamental period, the Jewish concept of Sheol had progressed to the stage where it was believed that Sheol had two distinct compartments, or sections. One section was a place of torment to which the wicked went while the other was a place of conscious bliss, often called 'Abraham's bosom' or 'paradise,' to which the righteous were carried by angels...."[/quote]

[url="http://www.biblestudymanuals.net/sheol_hades.htm"]http://www.biblestudymanuals.net/sheol_hades.htm[/url]

[quote]Furthermore, Paradise was not in heaven before the cross, for Jesus testified to the women on the morning He was resurrected that He had not yet gone up to His Father, (Jn 20:15-18), whereas He had met the thief in Paradise on the preceding Wednesday. [/quote]

[url="http://www.biblestudymanuals.net/sheol_hades.htm"]http://www.biblestudymanuals.net/sheol_hades.htm[/url]


[quote]
4. It seems that Sheol has different sections. There is the contrast between 'the lowest part' and 'the highest part' of Sheol (Deut 32:22). This figurative language implies that there are divisions or distinctions within Sheol. Perhaps the Old Testament's emphatic distinction between the righteous and the wicked in this life indicates that this distinction continues on in the afterlife. Thus the wicked are said to be in 'the lowest part,' while the righteous are in 'the higher part' of Sheol. While this is not clearly stated in the Old Testament, there seems to be some kind of distinction within Sheol....[/quote]


[url="http://www.biblestudymanuals.net/sheol_hades.htm"]http://www.biblestudymanuals.net/sheol_hades.htm[/url]

Edited July 31, 2004 by Cure of Ars

[luciana]

^^^^^ Excellent reply Cure of Ars

Also, regarding the following:

[quote]a similar question is often raised regarding Gen 2:17, where God says to Adam and Eve:

--But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.[/quote]


[i][b] for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die[/i][/b]----I've always heard that here God is talking death spiritually, they lost their immortality and paradise and sin entered the world.

Or correct me if I'm wrong

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='luciana' date='Jul 30 2004, 08:51 PM'] I've always heard that here God is talking death spiritually, they lost their immortality and paradise and sin entered the world. [/quote]
you are correct. however, the phrase "in that day" is also worth elucidating, especially in comparison to Jesus' words to the thief.

[luciana]

Thanks, I guess it's a "both/and" thing.

The explanations I had heard of :Cure's answer to the thief question and the Garden one I mentioned get around the literalist meaning, but the explanation you gave that looks at the meaning of the Hebrew phrase is good because it helps with those other times in the Old Testament that use the phrase like in 1Kings.

Edited July 31, 2004 by luciana

[MorphRC]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Jul 31 2004, 03:56 AM'] There's a difference between
"I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise"
and
"I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise"

The Greek doesn't indicate where that comma should be. I think Jesus was saying I say to you today. It seems like a way Jesus would put things. [/quote]
Thats a brilliant answer. The simplist thing missing can cause massive trouble.

[Quietfire]

Yes but there is another arguement here that no one addressed. It somewhat tap dances around Cathurian's question.
By implying that Christ is dead for three days, What? No one in heaven?
It sounds as if the thief will be in paradise alone for 72 hours.
It reminds me of the question.
"If Christ was dead for 3 days, who was running things?"

Peace.

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='Quietfire' date='Aug 1 2004, 01:23 PM'] By implying that Christ is dead for three days, What? No one in heaven? [/quote]
God was both on Earth in the person of Jesus Christ and in heaven.

[quote]It sounds as if the thief will be in paradise alone for 72 hours.
It reminds me of the question.
"If Christ was dead for 3 days, who was running things?"[/quote]
we've answered this two ways. cure stated that "paradise" did not mean "heaven" but instead the "bosom of Abraham" in a section of hell reserved for the righteous who could not yet enter heaven.

i stated that "today" need not mean on that exact day but instead mean that the action is certain to occur as soon as it does in fact take place.

who was running things? God

pax christi,
phatcatholic