littleflower+JMJ Posted July 31, 2004 Share Posted July 31, 2004 i wasn't speaking about, for or as a "Bush Repulican" cuz thats not whats its about.....and many others weren't either only about what the Church teachings and instructs.......which really isn't up for debate on certain issues like we've mentioned in eariler posts when it comes to voting.... we all need to follow them (and not opinions) if we want to be in good standing with our conscience and our faith..... it [i]is[/i] our decision.....but we [i]cannot[/i] ignore the facts and the Church when doing so.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted July 31, 2004 Share Posted July 31, 2004 (edited) [quote name='M.SIGGA' date='Jul 30 2004, 10:01 PM']When I suggested dropping the argument earlier it's from past experience trying to reason with some Bush Republicans; the truth is it's immpossible There are many people who literally hate John Kerry and all Democrats and wish them ill, so it's not worth arguing this topic here. I posted earlier where you can read the words of John Paul II concerning the responsibility of Catholic voters. Read the Gospel of Life, because the Pope wrote it as instruction for all people, and talk it over with your priest if you have trouble understanding it, and pray about it before making a quick decision, and it is [b]your[/b] decision. Consider which decision is closer to fulfilling God's will and which might have the greater potential to build Christ's kingdom in this wicked country, and be sure to weigh the consequences. I'm not meaning to pontificate at all, but it's perfectly ok to have varied opinions on different topics, but opinions can potentially become spiritually dangerous and sinful when they openly, publicly, directly, and maliciously defy Christ and the Church on purpose. God Bless [/quote] Clearly, a Catholic must inform his conscience, and he must do all in his power to stop the crime of abortion. Has President Bush done enough in this area, probably not, but to vote for John Kerry, a man who has for some 30 years now advocated the mass murder of innocent human beings, can never be justified. I pray constantly for John Kerry, and so I do not hate the man; it is my fervent hope that he will at some point in time return to full communion with the Catholic Church. But I can in no way vote for a man who holds that there is a public "right" to kill innocent human beings. The answer to the problems of poverty and injustice in America will not be solved by the mass sacrifice of the unborn, and to vote for John Kerry, knowing his position on abortion and other moral issues, is a grave sin. I agree wholeheartedly with you, when you said that we must, "Read the Gospel of Life, because the Pope wrote it as instruction for all people, and talk it over with your priest if you have trouble understanding it, and pray about it before making a quick decision, and it is [b]your[/b] decision." All of this is true, but I would add that each one of us will be judged by [b]our[/b] decision, and should we vote for a man who will enforce and promote the murder of the innocent, then the blood of those innocent unborn human beings will be on [b]our[/b] hands as well; for we will be complicit in the legalized crime of murder. When the midwives were ordered by Pharaoh to kill the new born Hebrew males, they refused, for they feared God. [Exodus 1:15-22] Catholics must act in the same way, and thus we must resist by all non-violent means the moral evils of our own day, and one of the ways to do this, is to avoid voting for anyone who supports abortion, euthanasia, homosexual marriage, etc., because in this way can we become the leaven within our society. When Catholics stop voting for pro-abortion politicians, then perhaps it really will be possible to stop abortion. But so long as Catholics find excuses in order to vote for those who support the murder of the innocent, then it follows that it will be politically impossible to stop this horrible crime against humanity. God bless, Todd Edited July 31, 2004 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mom25angels Posted July 31, 2004 Share Posted July 31, 2004 [quote name='Theoketos' date='Jul 30 2004, 01:06 PM'] Could you say that voting for some one other then Bush is voting for Kerry? [/quote] Yep, you sure could and you'd be right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mom25angels Posted July 31, 2004 Share Posted July 31, 2004 [quote name='Ellenita' date='Jul 30 2004, 07:30 AM'] The equation of 'right wing' politics and Catholicism is quite offensive to some of us here..... [/quote] Well, considering that "left wing" democratic party lines are pro death I'd be happy to say I'm a Catholic "right wing" Republican. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.SIGGA Posted July 31, 2004 Share Posted July 31, 2004 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jul 31 2004, 12:18 AM'] All of this is true, but I would add that each one of us will be judged by [b]our[/b] decision, and should we vote for a man who will enforce and promote the murder of the innocent, then the blood of those innocent unborn human beings will be on [b]our[/b] hands as well; for we will be complicit in the legalized crime of murder. [/quote] hence, "weigh the consequences." I believe wholeheartedly that the Holy Spirit doesn't abandon the conscience of the faithful seeking His guidance. As an adult in the Church, I believe it is more important to seek out the great Spirit of God in these types of decision making that are clearly an act of conversion. I think there is a big difference between scaring people into voting prolife all-the-way - which I believe are the tactics of some with larger political agendas - and allowing people to experience a real conversion towards understanding why prolife is the only way. The fact plain and simple is neither candidate is actually "pro-life" as the Church defines it - this is how a bishop answered me at a young adult conference when I asked him flat out who to vote for this election. He told me to pray about it and consider the decision in respect to where it places me in eternity. That is why [b]he[/b] and none of you have that sort of authority because some of the methods used here to convert people are driving people into wanting to vote for Kerry even more. This is a cut-and-dry decision process for people who would normally under non-abortion agenda drama support the Republican party anyway. For Catholic prolife democrats this is a really difficult decision, seeing that all other agendas including other forms of repect for human life besides abortion, and our "Constitutional Right" must be put on hold. Text dumping huge automatic-excommunication documents and threats combined with "I hope kerry dies" stuff is really annoying and really doesn't help at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted July 31, 2004 Share Posted July 31, 2004 (edited) [quote name='M.SIGGA' date='Jul 30 2004, 11:00 PM'] hence, "weigh the consequences." I believe wholeheartedly that the Holy Spirit doesn't abandon the conscience of the faithful seeking His guidance. As an adult in the Church, I believe it is more important to seek out the great Spirit of God in these types of decision making that are clearly an act of conversion. I think there is a big difference between scaring people into voting prolife all-the-way - which I believe are the tactics of some with larger political agendas - and allowing people to experience a real conversion towards understanding why prolife is the only way. The fact plain and simple is neither candidate is actually "pro-life" as the Church defines it - this is how a bishop answered me at a young adult conference when I asked him flat out who to vote for this election. He told me to pray about it and consider the decision in respect to where it places me in eternity. That is why [b]he[/b] and none of you have that sort of authority because some of the methods used here to convert people are driving people into wanting to vote for Kerry even more. This is a cut-and-dry decision process for people who would normally under non-abortion agenda drama support the Republican party anyway. For Catholic prolife democrats this is a really difficult decision, seeing that all other agendas including other forms of repect for human life besides abortion, and our "Constitutional Right" must be put on hold. Text dumping huge automatic-excommunication documents and threats combined with "I hope kerry dies" stuff is really annoying and really doesn't help at all. [/quote] What position held by Mr. Kerry outweighs his support for the murder of the innocent? The fundamental right to life is the foundation of all other rights, if it is denied, then there can be no justice. You may try and justify voting for him in your own mind, but to vote for him is objectively a grave sin. John Kerry supports partial birth abortion, while George Bush opposes it and has helped to enact a legal ban on it in the United States. Your arguments are unconvincing, and so I will not commit mortal sin with you by voting for John Kerry. As Cardinal Ratzinger indicated in his letter to the US Bishops, Catholics can disagree on when capital punishment should be used or when to go to war, but they cannot disagree on matters concerning abortion and euthanasia. God bless, And know that I pray for you, Todd Edited July 31, 2004 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.SIGGA Posted July 31, 2004 Share Posted July 31, 2004 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jul 31 2004, 01:06 AM'] What position held by Mr. Kerry outweighs his support for the murder of the innocent? The fundamental right to life is the foundation of all other rights, if it is denied, then there can be no justice. You may try and justify voting for him in your own mind, but to vote for him is objectively a grave sin. John Kerry supports partial birth abortion, while George Bush opposes it and has helped to enact a ban on it as law in the United States. Your arguments are unconvincing, and so I will commit mortal sin with you by voting for John Kerry. God bless, And know that I pray for you, Todd [/quote] My brother in Christ you totally and completely missed the point of my post. I'm not voting for John Kerry. Where on earth did you ever get that impression or come to that conclusion? THis is the stuff I'm talking about... specifically this: [quote]Your arguments are unconvincing, and so I will commit mortal sin with you by voting for John Kerry.[/quote] what is this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littleflower+JMJ Posted July 31, 2004 Share Posted July 31, 2004 when there is a abortion agenda does the non-abortion agenda really matter at all? we're talking about innocent, defenseless lives beign taken here.... thats what the Pope was saying when he said abortion and euthasia were both such grave matters there was no compromising nor secondary to any other when it comes to voting...... [url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=9366&view=findpost&p=287812"]heres something interesting.....[/url] we can't ignore the facts......as catholics, we align ourselves with the Catholic morals set before us...... we can go from there but we do know one thing......a pro-abortion candidate would be a grave sin if we vote for them.....and in no way, no how can supporting one ever be okay or justified..... pax. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted July 31, 2004 Share Posted July 31, 2004 (edited) [quote name='M.SIGGA' date='Jul 30 2004, 11:12 PM'] My brother in Christ you totally and completely missed the point of my post. I'm not voting for John Kerry. Where on earth did you ever get that impression or come to that conclusion?[/quote] Perhaps because you appear to make it sound as if this is a hard moral choice, it is not hard at all. It is a mortal sin to vote for a pro-abortion politician, if that vote is done with full knowledge and deliberate consent. God bless, Todd Edited July 31, 2004 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.SIGGA Posted July 31, 2004 Share Posted July 31, 2004 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jul 31 2004, 01:14 AM'] Perhaps because you appear to make is sound as if this is a hard moral choice, it is not hard at all. It is a mortal sin to vote for pro-abortion politician, if that vote is done with full knowledge and deliberate consent. God bless, Todd [/quote] Once enlightened to the Gospel of Life it is. For some people it takes more time than others. Ever take time to think that not everyone operates like a droid and some people need clarity before making a moral decision? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted July 31, 2004 Share Posted July 31, 2004 (edited) [quote name='M.SIGGA' date='Jul 30 2004, 11:00 PM'] This is a cut-and-dry decision process for people who would normally under non-abortion agenda drama support the Republican party anyway. For Catholic prolife democrats this is a really difficult decision, seeing that all other agendas including other forms of repect for human life besides abortion, and our "Constitutional Right" must be put on hold. Text dumping huge automatic-excommunication documents and threats combined with "I hope kerry dies" stuff is really annoying and really doesn't help at all. [/quote] This is where I disagree with you, even if abortion were not an issue, the Democratic position on the nature and powers of the State are non-Catholic. The whole platform of the Democratic Party is contrary to the principle of subsidiarity, and such, it should not be supported by Catholics. Edited July 31, 2004 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted July 31, 2004 Share Posted July 31, 2004 (edited) [quote name='M.SIGGA' date='Jul 30 2004, 11:18 PM'] Once enlightened to the Gospel of Life it is. For some people it takes more time than others. Ever take time to think that not everyone operates like a droid and some people need clarity before making a moral decision? [/quote] I came to oppose abortion long before I became Catholic, and based my position originally on the natural law alone. Right reason tells a man that abortion is murder, you don't need revelation to know this truth. Gaining moral clarity on the issue of the murder of the innocent, isn't difficult to grasp. This truth is written into the very nature of the human person. Edited July 31, 2004 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littleflower+JMJ Posted July 31, 2004 Share Posted July 31, 2004 here some good stuff (emphasize mine) [quote]“[u]abortion and euthanasia[/u] are crimes which no human law can claim to legitimize. There is no obligation in conscience to obey such laws; instead there is a grave and clear obligation to oppose them by conscientious objection. In the case of an intrinsically unjust law, such as a law permitting abortion or euthanasia, it is therefore [b]never[/b] licit to obey it, or to ‘take part in a propaganda campaign in favor of such a law, or vote for it.’" (The Gospel of Life, no. 73)[/quote] JPII :wub: [quote] Ever take time to think that not everyone operates like a droid and some people need clarity before making a moral decision? [/quote] of course but i also think in the end, when it come down to it, we all just need to cast aside everything and see if we align with the Church . pax......:sleep: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.SIGGA Posted July 31, 2004 Share Posted July 31, 2004 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jul 31 2004, 01:19 AM'] This is where I disagree with you, even if abortion were not an issue, the Democratic position on the nature and powers of the State are non-Catholic. The whole platform of the Democratic Party is contrary to the principle of subsidiarity, and such, it should not be supported by Catholics. [/quote] [quote]When I suggested dropping the argument earlier it's from past experience trying to reason with some Bush Republicans; the truth is it's immpossible There are many people who literally hate John Kerry and all Democrats and wish them ill, so it's not worth arguing this topic here.[/quote] Lol I need to take my own advice Apotheon you totally lost me when you turned the abortion debate into something about the evils of the platform structure of the democratic party and how it's not consistant with Catholicism. The entire structure of the United States government and Constitution is not consistant with Catholicism. Our capitalist and materialistic "american" way of life isn't consistant with Catholicism. The very concept that these sort of moral issues can be debated and "compromised" is not consistant with Catholicism. It is all very very non-Catholic; that's your party too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.SIGGA Posted July 31, 2004 Share Posted July 31, 2004 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jul 31 2004, 01:21 AM'] I came to oppose abortion long before I became Catholic, and based my position originally on the natural law alone. Right reason tells a man that abortion is murder, you don't need revelation to know this truth. Gaining moral clarity on the issue of the murder of the innocent, isn't difficult to grasp. This truth is written into the very nature of the human person. [/quote] My Badd if the Holy Spirit took a little bit longer converting me into a totally pro-life position, because I didn't used to be. I envy your wisdom lol. I'm taking my own advice and ending this debate. Peace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now