M.SIGGA Posted July 30, 2004 Share Posted July 30, 2004 [quote name='zwergel88' date='Jul 30 2004, 06:15 PM'] just because i support Kerry, who says? [/quote] pal, you're not going to win this debate here.... back away easy because I sense a possible text dump :ph34r: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmmerf Posted July 30, 2004 Share Posted July 30, 2004 [quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Jul 30 2004, 07:13 PM'] I hope you are not under the impression thatthe Churchs power won the Cold war because frankly that is laghable the Church Has NO power and more than that the Church Has never had any power to speak of, no more than an old man trying to disapline a strong man in his prime. The Church has had Authority, but like the old mans it is Moral in nature not because it has had Power behind it. [/quote] Well, A) Gorbachev credits JPII with bringing down the Iron Curtain. Not me. B) The Catholic Church fought with a great deal of her power against Hitler's 'Final Solution' in WWII, by hiding hundreds of thousands of Jews who would otherwise have been shipped to concentration camps. C)As to your claim that the church has 'never had any power to speak of' I'd like to introduce you to a funny little thing I call 'The History of Western Civilization'... Lessee.... The thirteenth century. Aaaaand who is pope? Thaaaaat's Right, Innocent III. The most powerful man in Europe at the time. Hey! While we're playing, who negotiated with Genghis Kahn at the Seige of Rome in the Fifth Century? Wait for it.... Ding! Yes! Pope Leo The Great. Oh, wait, there's something else I'm thinking of... errr.... ummm... Starts with a 'C'... ooooh, films about it and everything.... Crusades! Yes! The Crusades! Who's got a permanent Seat at the U.N.? WE DO! Who's got the swiss guard, ready to whoop a-- butt? WE DO! Who crowns kings and monarchs for Centuries? WE DO! Who is strengthened by the blood of martyrs? US AGAIN! Who taught the children of Europe to read? Zing! Hey! That's us again! Who preserved knowledge in Irish monasteries while the rest of Europe sank into the Dark Ages? ONCE AGAIN, It's Holy Mother Church! But you're right, we were never powerful. There's only a BILLION of us now. :crackup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zwergel88 Posted July 30, 2004 Share Posted July 30, 2004 [quote]I could not in good conscience vote for him,[/quote] and I could not in good conscience support Bush Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted July 30, 2004 Share Posted July 30, 2004 A pro-abortion candidiate disqualifies himself by his position, and cannot even be considered. In the same way you, could not vote for a Nazi should they run for office. If you are Catholic, voting for Kerry is a sin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zwergel88 Posted July 30, 2004 Share Posted July 30, 2004 [quote]If you are Catholic, voting for Kerry is a sin. [/quote] okay, i understand that that is what you believe, could you show me some kind of document, put out by the Church, that says they same thing, not something that says abortion is wrong, i know it is, but something that actually says that voting for Kerry is a sin btw, im not trying to cause trouble, i am just trying to make the point that i believe voting for Bush is wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.SIGGA Posted July 31, 2004 Share Posted July 31, 2004 (edited) [quote name='zwergel88' date='Jul 30 2004, 06:46 PM'] i am just trying to make the point that i believe voting for Bush is wrong [/quote] no it is definitly wrong but if you want to be a Catholic in good standing you are obliged to vote for a candidate that professes to make sure abortion laws will get shut down. it's a lesser of two evils sort of thing because the Right to LIFE must always be upheld at all cost (I sound like ironmonk lol). check out Pope John Paul 2's encyclical EVANGELIUM VITAE (The Gospel of Life) to save yourself from a dredded text dump [url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/ENCYC/JP2EVANG.HTM"]Gospel of Life[/url] Edited July 31, 2004 by M.SIGGA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted July 31, 2004 Share Posted July 31, 2004 MMMERF [quote]Genghis Kahn[/quote] First Leo negotiated with Attila the Hun not Genghis Kahn, Gengis kahn wouldn't live for another 700 years or so, and I am sory you don't understand the differance between Power-- which is the ability to exercise FORCE, and authority, which is the right to command. The Church has never had Power, Innocent III certianly didn't have any Power, He had no army to send anywhere but had to ask others to do his fighting for him. I would like to introduce to you a little thing called " political Philosophy" the Western world has always made that distinction between Power and Authority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zwergel88 Posted July 31, 2004 Share Posted July 31, 2004 (edited) [quote]it's a lesser of two evils sort of thing because the Right to LIFE must always be upheld at all cost [/quote] I believe that Kerry is the lesser of two evils, and I will be upholding the right to life of innocent soldiers and civilians if I support him also, thank you M.SIGGA, for not attacking me like some people have, i really appreciate it when people try to explain their points in a kind sort of way, without calling me names Edited July 31, 2004 by zwergel88 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted July 31, 2004 Share Posted July 31, 2004 (edited) Don't the soldiers volunteer to enter the military with full knowledge that there could be a war? And they can fend for themselves, whereas the unborn fetus cannot. Kerry says he isn't going to end the war when he gets into office. I always here about how John Kerry wants to fight for those who can't fight for themselves. Edited July 31, 2004 by thedude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littleflower+JMJ Posted July 31, 2004 Share Posted July 31, 2004 [quote name='zwergel88' date='Jul 30 2004, 07:21 PM'] I believe that Kerry is the lesser of two evils, and I will be upholding the right to life of innocent soldiers and civilians if I support him also, thank you M.SIGGA, for not attacking me like some people have, i really appreciate it when people try to explain their points in a kind sort of way, without calling me names [/quote] zwergel88, you cannot vote and support a candidate such as Kerry, do not be fooled into thinking he can do no evil because he is going to...and alot too.... by voting for Kerry one will be helping make same-sex marriage legal (thus losing the sacredness of matrimony), cloning, abortion (which he will spread in our country and to many nations as well.....killing many, many, MANY more innocent defenseless lives), is supported by Planned Parenthood (who endorse contraceptions, abortions, etc.) and will also allow embryo research........ any catholic in good conscious cannot vote for a pro-death candidate such as John Kerry.....who is pro-choice, pro-death and pro-abortion.... as Abortion is an issue that is the important to consider since so many lives depend on your vote to help end it......one cannot support and vote for Kerry..... all that he is going to do goes directly against the Catholic Faith and what She stands for, he is a Catholic who is about to be excommunicated as well......he also is used the Holy Eucharist as a political thing.... Kerry doesn't need our votes (which will only allow him to spread evil and his errors of abortion) but our prayers, so that he may return to the Faith instead of rejecting it...... you can tell alot about a man by seeing how he lives his faith...... vote for anyone but do not vote for the man who all the abortion ppl are rooting for to help them kill babies for money.... this is a grave matter and one that one must follow with the Church's teachings...for when evil is able to prevail (like abortion) ...we cannot look far when we find it rapid around us.... thats when our duty as a catholic it is an [b]obligation[/b] to uphold the Church's teachigns in the best we can...... something very clearly Kerry does not do..... his agenda is very apparent....his willing to do everything he can and do to help abortion spread....which is something that cannot happen.... God bless..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littleflower+JMJ Posted July 31, 2004 Share Posted July 31, 2004 [quote][b]1.Abortion[/b] The Church teaches that, regarding a law permitting abortions, it is "never licit to obey it, or to take part in a propaganda campaign in favor of such a law, or to vote for it" (EV 73). Abortion is the intentional and direct killing of an innocent human being, and therefore it is a form of homicide. [b]2. Euthanasia[/b] Often disguised by the name "mercy killing," euthanasia also is a form of homicide. No one has a right to take his own life (suicide), and no one has the right to take the life of any innocent person. In euthanasia, the ill or elderly are killed out of a misplaced sense of compassion, but true compassion cannot include doing something intrinsically evil to another person (cf. EV 73). [b]3. Fetal Stem Cell Research[/b] Human embryos are human beings. "Respect for the dignity of the human being excludes all experimental manipulation or exploitation of the human embryo" (CRF 4b). Recent scientific advances show that any medical cure that might arise from experimentation on fetal stem cells can be developed by using adult stem cells instead. Adult stem cells can be obtained without doing harm to the adults from whom they come. Thus there no longer is a medical argument in favor of using fetal stem cells. [b]4. Human Cloning[/b] "Attempts . . . for obtaining a human being without any connection with sexuality through 'twin fission,' cloning, or parthenogenesis are to be considered contrary to the moral law, since they are in opposition to the dignity both of human procreation and of the conjugal union" (RHL I:6). Human cloning also ends up being a form of homicide because the "rejected" or "unsuccessful" clones are destroyed, yet each clone is a human being. [b]5. Homosexual "Marriage"[/b] True marriage is the union of one man and one woman. Legal recognition of any other form of "marriage" undermines true marriage, and legal recognition of homosexual unions actually does homosexual persons a disfavor by encouraging them to persist in what is an objectively immoral arrangement. "When legislation in favor of the recognition of homosexual unions is proposed for the first time in a legislative assembly, the Catholic lawmaker has a moral duty to express his opposition clearly and publicly and to vote against it. To vote in favor of a law so harmful to the common good is gravely immoral" (UHP 10). [/quote] from the catholic ansiwers voters guide.these are the 5 non-negiotable issues that a catholic cannot compromise when voting for a candidate........ clearly you can see Kerry is will allow 1, 3, 4, 5........which anyone who will be voting for him will help accomlish.... and if one believes in killing innocent children, number 2 is not far behind.... [url="http://www.catholic.com/library/voters_guide.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/voters_guide.asp[/url] innocent lives depend on our votes........we must chose wisely and for the defense of them......for they have no voice.... pax. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zwergel88 Posted July 31, 2004 Share Posted July 31, 2004 (edited) [quote]or to take part in a propaganda campaign in favor of such a law, or to vote for it"[/quote] I would unstand this to mean, that you can't vote in favor of a [i]law[/i] supporting abortion, it doesn't say that you can't vote for a [i]candidate[/i] okay, i really must get out of this debate, because i really hate to fight with all of you, I understand, and respect your opinion, however, I will continue to support John Kerry. Edited July 31, 2004 by zwergel88 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted July 31, 2004 Share Posted July 31, 2004 (edited) [quote name='zwergel88' date='Jul 30 2004, 04:19 PM'] and I could not in good conscience support Bush [/quote] President Bush's positions are closer to the teaching of the Catholic Church on moral issues than those of John Kerry, and in fact John Kerry's views on abortion, euthanasia, medical experimentation on aborted children, homosexual marriage, etc., are diametrically opposed to the teaching of the Church. A man who knows Kerry's views on these matters, and who still votes for him, materially cooperates in support of actions that are gravely immoral, and as a consequence, he, i.e., the voter, should not receive Holy Communion, until he has confessed his sins and been reconciled to God and the Church. Edited July 31, 2004 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littleflower+JMJ Posted July 31, 2004 Share Posted July 31, 2004 [quote name='zwergel88' date='Jul 30 2004, 08:28 PM'] okay, i really must get out of this debate, because i really hate to fight with all of you, I understand, and respect your opinion, however, I will continue to support John Kerry. [/quote] its not our opinion....its how the [u]Catholic CHurch [/u] instructs us to vote...... and its every catholic's duty to know it and to uphold it.... [quote]however, I will continue to support John Kerry. [/quote] again.... it is a [b]grave[/b] sin to vote for a pro-abortion candidate and in supporting Kerry you will be helping him allow more and more babies to be murdered from the womb........ pax. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zwergel88 Posted July 31, 2004 Share Posted July 31, 2004 [quote]the voter, should not receive Holy Communion, until he has confessed his sins and been reconciled to God and the Church.[/quote] i don't consider voting for Kerry a sin, and I have only heard of one Bishop saying that voters shouldn't receive Holy Communion, i have only heard them say that of the actual person who supports abortion, which i do not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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