John Kerry

[Guest JeffCR07]

[quote]Society and the State are not synonymous terms, and in fact society exists prior to the State, and gives rise to it. When the State usurps powers that actually belong to individuals and to society in general, it is an abuse, and in doing this, the State acts in opposition to the principle of subsidiarity.[/quote]

I agree with everything that apotheoun has said 100%. I would like to point out something with regards to the above post. Society may give authority to the Sate, however, we must also remember that all authority is God's (because it was his in the beginning, will be his in the end, and we only exercise it through his Permissive Will) and so must be respected. In order to "respect" authority, we must obey it whenever it does not force me to do something contrary to the Moral Law (as taught by the Magisterium), regardless of how inefficient or stupid it may be. Thus, a Sate, or any sovereign, may "abuse" its power by legislating something that is not in the best interest (temporally speaking) of the society, but we do not have the right to disobey (read: disrespect) that authority. Only in an instance where the sovereign power orders us to sin, or break the moral law, do we have the right (and the obligation) to disobey.

Kind of off topic, but I figured since Apotheoun was going down that path, I would comment on it anyways.

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff

[Socrates]

All I can say concerning posts by people supporting Sen. Kerry, is that if even self-proclaimed pro-life Catholics support politicians such as Kerry who openly and shamelessly and blatantly support all aspects of the Culture of Death, God help us all! The modern national Democratic Party is all about promoting abortion, homsexuality, human bioengineering, and all forms of immorality.

Whatever you think about Bush and the Iraq war (I do believe he has his faults), at least Bush will pass pro-life legislation that gets past the Dems in the Senate. Kerry will strike down any curbs on abortion and will appoint more actively pro-abort judges! Kerry will only solidify the Culture of Death in American government.

If you truly and sincerely believe Bush is absolutely no good for the pro-life cause, at least vote for a pro-life alternative candidate, or refrain from voting (though I believe this will only help Kerry).

Supporting Kerry and his ilk is unacceptable!
And Catholics who vote for such politicians have no right to complain about the Culture of Death in America. They are part of the problem, not part of the solution!

Remember, All it takes for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing.

[CatholicAndFanatical]

I agree Socrates..and with everyone else for that matter.

I made up my mind last night when I seen Bush speak in front of the Knights of Columbus that I am definitly, 100%, no doubt in my mind voting for G Dub again.

What is sad, is Kerry is suppose to be Catholic but he doesnt even address us at all. I dont see him speaking in front of any Catholic group or organization.

What straight minded Catholic could vote for someone that doesnt even support his own religion??


Vote Bush!

Vote 4-Life!

Edited August 4, 2004 by CatholicAndFanatical

[amarkich]

I think it is fairly clear (to say the least) that a vote for Kerry is unacceptable by any faithful Catholic. I would just like to point out that I agree with the comments of Apotheoun and Jeff and, in light of them, would like to pose the question: If this is true, why do so few (if any) Catholics obey civil law regarding traffic laws (most notably, the speed limit)? Do you guys follow the speed limit? God bless.

[Aloysius]

yeah, a spirit of disobedience is quite prevelant amoung Catholics... my Catholic friends laugh at my argument to them that it is wrong to break the law even if alchohol itself isn't wrong and drink anyway. obedience isn't cool, but it is holy which is why I do my best to follow the law and don't believe i've broken any laws recently (err.. wait, i think i might have j-walked at that one intersection yesterday... oops)

[Maddalena]

Man... and I thougth Al Gore was boring to listen to. o.o Listening to John Kerry puts me to sleep.

[Guest JeffCR07]

[quote]I think it is fairly clear (to say the least) that a vote for Kerry is unacceptable by any faithful Catholic. I would just like to point out that I agree with the comments of Apotheoun and Jeff and, in light of them, would like to pose the question: If this is true, why do so few (if any) Catholics obey civil law regarding traffic laws (most notably, the speed limit)? Do you guys follow the speed limit? God bless.[/quote]

It is interesting that you should note this. As my faith continues to grow, I continue to realise more and more that many of the things that I used to do are sins - some way more terrible than others. That having been said, Adam, you did see the logical conclusion of my statement, and the answer is yes.

I am trying my best to obey civil authority in everything that I can, out of respect to the authority that is ultimately, regardless of who is using it, God's. I have given up drinking entirely (which I used to do socially), when I see that I am exceeding the speed limit, I slow down, I try not to jaywalk, etc.

Though these things may seem stupid, and are certainly not mortal sins (even with regards drinking in moderation), it is another way to offer up my life to Christ throughout the day, and I hope that many tiny steps will lead to a larger step on the path to holiness.

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff

[Good Friday]

[quote name='MC Just']Our Holy Father chooses bush over Kerry. why do so many lay people think they are infallible and the pope is somehow wrong??? Especially democrats.[/quote]
Is anyone going to prove this, or shall we just accept it?

First, I want to say that I hope we're all pleased with ourselves over the way this thread has turned out. People have gotten incredibly hostile with M.SIGGA, who is not voting for John Kerry and has said so numerous times, just because he dares to question the moral integrity of President Bush and because he dares to question the political absolutism that is not to be found anywhere in Catholic teaching, yet seems to reign supreme on Phatmass.

But I will say this: Get a clue, folks. The Church has not endorsed the Republicans; the Church [b]cannot[/b] endorse any of our politicians, because, in fact, a democratic government in and of itself is totally inconsistent with Church teaching. If you [i]really[/i] want to see what the Church says about politics, I suggest reading some stuff from Pope Pius IX, particularly the part where he said, "Democracy is a pest." Our entire government is antithetical to Church teaching. Your insistence that the Church supports this candidate or that is [i]argumentum absurdum[/i] -- the Church does not support democratic governments, period.

So what has this thread accomplished? It has infuriated numerous people, offended several, alienated at least one, scandalized God knows how many lurkers, made the Blessed Virgin cry, and crucified Christ. Hoorah! Pat yourselves on the back.

This is the reason why I rarely visit Phatmass anymore, and this is the reason why I would never recommend it to anyone ever again. Because the people here are, frankly, right in theory but extremely wrong, to the point of immorality, in expressing their correctness. Triumphalism reigns supreme, and humility has died. And dUSt is apparently allowing this, because I reported this thread at least a week ago -- nothing whatsoever has been done about it, and numerous moderators are posting on it without trying to get a grip on the constant bashing over the head of those horrible wrong people, the ones that we are [i]supposed[/i] to be converting, not attacking.

Phatmass is failing at its mission because the [i]already[/i] saved have taken over the phorum. I didn't know there were so many Calvinists in the Church.

In closing, possibly for good, I would like for everyone to ponder this: When these people that you scandalize and turn away from the Church go to hell, who do you think Christ is going to be [b]more[/b] angry with? Them, or the ones who could have helped them but chose to attack them instead? I'm sure you think them, but I'm afraid you may be unpleasantly surprised when it turns out to be you.