Are We Supposed To Forgive The Devil?

[Tora-Musume]

[quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Aug 2 2004, 02:58 PM'] Maybe I'm wrong, but correct me if I am, God DID NOT have to die on the cross for us, he could of done absolutly nothing but willed that salvation come to mankind and it would indeed come to mankind. However He CHOSE to die on the cross so that our relationship with him is personal, and that we may know His love for us.

So in conclusion, Jesus didn't HAVE to die for us, but it was all God's plan that he would.

If I'm wrong, please correct me.

God Bless,

Mikey [/quote]
I don't think he had to die. He chose to die. That was his choise.

Tora

[Aloysius]

read my post though,[quote]well, I think when speaking of God, He makes the rules. you're just saying if He wanted to, He didn't have to make that standard of sacrifice for sin. just like if He wanted to, He didn't have to create the laws of physics, or if He wanted to, He didn't have to create gravity or time or whatever. The way God chooses to operate defines what has to be done and what doesn't, so of course it was God's choice. [/quote] anything God does, He had to do, because He defines what must be done. it's an interesting mystery

[Tora-Musume]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Aug 2 2004, 06:17 PM'] i said that because he is saying that God is not holy, but an average guy up there in heaven who is not greived by our sins.  that is a lie, and to perpetuate this lie is the work of satan. 
[/quote]

We need someone to greive for our sins? What kind os sins have you committed that you need to be greived for? Sorry. Personal question I think. And what would you consider a sin? Eating a candy bar when you are over weight? Calling out someone a name interms of hurting that person's feelings? Dressing inapropriately? Are these all sins? From what I read, stealing food froma grocery store is not sin if you are stealing to feed your children. But then again, why are they put in jail for doing that? I m so confussed so please clarify for me.

[quote]he laughs at the notion that God became man in the person of Jesus Christ and died on the Cross for our sins. [/quote]

The one laughing...is that carrdero or the devil?

[quote]That's the devils greatest loss, and it is his goal to make people think it didn't happen so that they won't accept it and he'll get more souls.[/quote]

What's the Devil's greatest loss?

And the Devil is not getting my soul...no way..uh uh..*shakes head from left to right preffusely* It's too hot down there. And from what I read, if I was to knock on someone's door, for a drink of water, carrdero would give me water (tap water) but in a dixie cup and I have to dispose of it in front of him. Someone stated toilet water. Someone else stated toilet water that...well...never mind.

Carrdero...nice website.

Edited August 2, 2004 by Tora-Musume

[Aloysius]

i've decided i'm gonna start infusing my posts with as much scripture as I can again from now on...
[quote][b]carderro[/b] What unfathomable sins have you committed and when did this event happen? Do you enjoy sending entities to be crucified on crosses? Is this something your GOD enjoys?
[/quote]

laughed at, mocked, same difference...

our sins greive God, because we are acting contrary to the way He wants us to act.

the devil's greatest loss is Jesus Christ's victory over death, when He died and ressurected. "O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?" 1[i] Corinthians 15:55[/i]
as to what is a sin... there are Ten Commandments and the Moral Teaching of the Church (read the catechism or talk to a priest 4 that)

Jesus said "if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments." [i]St. Matthew 19:17[/i]

the example of stealing food for ones family-- the owner of that food deserves something in return for that food, but if all other means are exhasted and your family is starving okay then, but nowadays that's not gonna happen there's soup kitchens and stuff.

anyway, yeah, God makes clear what is moral and what is not through His Church. you don't have to be a big smarty to know either, you let your conscience be informed by Church teaching and thus you follow your conscience. Find a good examination of conscience and follow through that to know about whether or not you've sinned. The Church has the authority to bind and loose declaring what is moral and what is not, thus holding people to God's standard as it is in heaven [i]St. Matthew 16:19[/i]

my sins consist of lustful thoughts and actions that are contrary to the natural order of complementary man and women, as well as sometimes pride and anger. Jesus says something about all of these things [i]St. Matthew 5:28[/i] [i] St. Matthew 5:22[/i]

however, His grace is sufficient for me to overcome these sins [i] 2 Corinthians 12:9[/i] so long as I confess them [i]James 5:16[/i] and receive help from spiritual people among me (priests) [i]Galatians 6:1[/i]

[Guest JeffCR07]

Carrdero, I appreciate the background, however you completely failed to address my post. A meditative, personal relationship has always been approved of - and encouraged - by the Church. However, just because a relationship is deeply personal does not make it irrational. Emotions may be irrational, but a true, deep relationship is a perfectly, beautifully rational thing.

This having been said, it would be foolish to simply throw your relationship with God in a pile labeled "personal" and claim that reason should not be applied to it.

Thus I would ask again for you to reply to my post in which I have proved that the "god" you claim to have a relationship with is not, in fact, God at all.

Please respond to the actual points and logical conclusions that I brought up, I would really appreciate it. Thanks!

[Tora-Musume]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Aug 2 2004, 07:07 PM']
the example of stealing food for ones family-- the owner of that food deserves something in return for that food, but if all other means are exhasted and your family is starving okay then, but nowadays that's not gonna happen there's soup kitchens and stuff. [/quote]
the example of stealing food for ones family-- the owner of that food deserves something in return for that food, but if all other means are exhasted and your family is starving okay then, but nowadays that's not gonna happen there's soup kitchens and stuff.

nowadays, it's still happening. There are some people in this world that cannot or is unable to attend 3 trips to the (soup kitchens and stuff). I know of one entity that lived no wheres near a soup kitchen but lived really close to a store. It was explained to this young man that everything will be provided for him when he has stepped out into the world and be able to live independently that he can receive all the food that he needs (not from the store that is). The SYSTEM did not allow him and pretty much lied to him. So what did GOD offer him? Seemed like the choice that this entity made was the help of the devil. This young man was starving. This young man needed a family to love him. What love surrounded him was nothing more than other entities with guns and knives, (other's who have as you would say, become the devils agent). I wouldn't call this even remotely close to a family of love. But for this young man, it was all that he had. This young man was abandoned. Are we suppose to be GOD's servants? If we are, where were we when this young man needed us? Where were we when all entities that need us when they are in need of help to avoid being brought down along with the devil as to not become one of the devils agent?

If you see a man or a woman on the side of the road trying to flag down a car for a ride home, would you stop and let that entity into your car? What if they are one of the devils agents? Remember, we are suppose to be GOD's servants.

[carrdero]

Aloysus writes: carrdero, please explain to me why it took 6000 years for God to start acting the way you describe Him as acting

Good question. Actually I really cannot be sure how GOD acted 6000, 5000, 4000, 3000 years ago because I wasn't present during that period. Nobody in this generation has any insight to exactly what went on during that period. Now there is the Bible but I cannot entrust the Bible to depict an accurate picture of what the times were like or what GOD was thinking. There is too much mystery into what exactly would represent the Bible. I have heard stories to the effect that the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John were not written until 30 years after Jesus' death. 30 years!! I'm sorry but that is to many years for me. In school we used to play the parrot game (some of you may remember this as "telephone line") where you were given a sentence and you had to whisper in someones ear and they would whisper what you said in the next persons ear and so on until the last person would tell everyone what the message was and it really never had any resemblance to the original message. This is how the Bible is represented for me. It's the telephone line game X 1,000,000 people X 2000 years=huh?. There are too many possibilities for translation errors, personal interpretations printing errors. I am into publishing and I have experienced what it takes to put a book together and it is a really difficult process to keep the original intent and the authors original vision. Not to mention we would have to factor in the true reason why the books of the Bible were written at all (are they ficticious parables? Bedtime stories? Hallucinogenic ramblings? Is the history even of this world or our time?) and it adds up to too much conjecture. So what does somebody do? Well if you want to find out about something it is a good idea to go right to the source. That's what I did. I would believe that GOD (being the longest living entity) has had time to formulate TRUE understanding more than we have and arrive to the way that a Supreme Being should perceive existance. Has GOD made mistakes? GOD would have me believe that yes there were some mistakes made but this was before there was anyone around to laugh at GOD. This is understandable if we are to believe that GOD has arrived at infinite wisdom and great understanding. Practice makes perfect. GOD has had many moments to perfect GOD's creations. Does GOD change GOD's mind? I think so but not as much as we have to. I just believe when it comes to NATURAL LAWS and creative matters GOD has a very firm idea what works and what doesn't.

[Guest JeffCR07]

carrdero, please respond to my post

[nikkan_hanil]

Good cannot be derived from evil. You can't steal from the bank and give it to the Church.

[Tora-Musume]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Aug 2 2004, 06:17 PM'] i said that because he is saying that God is not holy, but an average guy up there in heaven who is not greived by our sins. that is a lie, and to perpetuate this lie is the work of satan. he laughs at the notion that God became man in the person of Jesus Christ and died on the Cross for our sins. [/quote]
[quote]carrdero Posted: Aug 2 2004, 12:45 AM 
JeffCR07 writes: No offense intended, but this statement is, from a purely intellectual standpoint, ridiculous. Holiness, or Godliness, is intrinsically natural to God himself, and is unattainable to the Devil, who is eternally and fully seperated from God.

No offense recieved. Again maybe another misunderstanding here when I said there is nothing really "holy" about GOD. I meant holy (Set apart for religious use or GOD's service). I don't believe there is a regime to join when you become friends with GOD. I would not encourage a relationship where my friends or acquaintences were in "service" to/of me. The friends and acquaintence that I do have are not all religious and these relationships remain worthy of encouragement to this day. I don't believe GOD would set these standards either. I believe that that is why many people shy away or become disinterested with encouraging a real, open, caring, personal relationship with GOD. With organized religion the relationship with GOD is already defined (not proven) for you. Anyone who has ever developed an honest relationship with GOD knows that no one can ever lead you away. The patience, the conversation, the LOVE and the UNDERSTANDING are far too compelling to just ignore. If any human has a fear that any other entity could break a communion with GOD the only thing that I am to conclude is that this human does not understand who GOD is or what GOD means in their lives.
[/quote]

I see where he stated that:
[quote]another misunderstanding here when I said there is nothing really "holy" about GOD. I meant holy (Set apart for religious use or GOD's service).[/quote]

I knew I read it somewhere, I just had to look for it.

[carrdero]

Jeff, I apologize for not getting back sooner I just took my hands out of the ice water.
I must be honest with you. I am not quite sure how to approach your post. I agree with all the GOD is good stuff. GOD has existed quite a long time to define and practice goodness. If you are implying that GOD created goodness that can be a safe bet but I don't believe GOD judges good or bad or wants us to be GOOD. The best way to explain it would be GOD K(NOW)s what is GOOD for GOD. GOD has an agenda and a PURPOSE for GOD's existence but I K(NOW) that this is not what GOD intends for other entities. If we agree with the goodness of GOD I believe there are ways we can utilize good when dealing with other entities but I believe GOD understands that there are people who have drawn their own conclusions about what is good for them and what isn't. A simple example of this (and it is not my favorite example) is that let's say that GOD says broccoli is good for you. Let's say GOD eats it and GOD is healthy for eating broccoli. Let's say GOD calls out the order from here on out everyone is to eat broccoli, but for someone like me where broccoli upsets my stomach (terribly) this would not be good advice (read CORRECT) even though GOD says it is good for you. GOD is perfect because GOD desires to be perfect. Not all entities share this opinion as you may have noticed through physical observations and experiences. Should GOD become upset because another entity is not Being like GOD? I think GOD is like a conscientious observer (not objector) on the matter.
As for the Perfect Justice and the Perfect Mercy I'm not sure what this is about or where it was leading. Maybe if you clarify this for me. Also the lamb and the lion thing- what was that about? I must admit that I haven't kept up with Christian Theology in quite some years.
As for logical extensions of GOD this may be a question that you will have to address GOD with personally. I don't know where you got this information from and I do not believe I have the proper understanding to answer that clearly and honestly for you.
Now about the forgiving of sins, that’s a topic I may contribute to. I believe that the forgiveness of "sin" must come from us. If we made the mistake I would think that it would be our first priority to analyze what we did find out why it is or isn't conducive to our spirit and PURPOSE then seek to take measures to CORRECT the situation and see to it that it never occurs again if that is what we desire. Running (or walking to GOD) for forgiveness I would feel (as long as you believe it is important) would be a secondary option (or thirdly or fourthly it actually depends on what kind of "sin" you have committed and what it entails). For example if I committed a crime and found myself in jail my second priority may be to make a phone call and get the bail money to get out of jail (GOD ain't going to put up no bail money-you know what I mean?) in which time I would have more time to reflect on my first priority. Are you still with me? Now once my most trusted friend/spouse/relative/mistress (who are not in my service) shows up with the bail money I can go home. Okay, I am out of jail. I am home and my loved ones are all over me. I mean they are relentless! "What's wrong with you? Don't you have any sense?" "I should have let you rot in that cell!!" "They're going to find you guilty this time?" ya know the whole nine yards. NOW I walk away cause now it's time to talk with GOD. Because I know that GOD isn't judgmental but I also feel that GOD would help me make the situation better and I just ran out of ideas.

When I first started my relationship talking with GOD I admit, I used to be the guy who would poo poo in my hands and held it up to GOD and say "Look what I did" but everytime I did it, GOD would seem entirely disinterested and just chuckle real quick then pat my head. For the longest of time I never understood why. I was so amazed of what I did and GOD is my friend but GOD didn't really seem all that excited about what I had done. I thought for awhile that GOD just didn't care but yet there was something- some feeling-a feeling that GOD wasn't careless either. Do you understand? When I "sin" (and just because I have a personal relationship with GOD doesn't mean I receive all of GOD's knowledge and wisdom and power) I have to think what can I do to make this CORRECT. Usually the answers are obvious sometimes we could use a little direction but I can honestly tell you that my first intentions are not to run to GOD and he is certainly not tapping his foot waiting for me to approach him with my "sin". I usually bring it to GOD's attention (as if GOD doesn't know what I did already) but GOD and I are not discussing what my penance is nor is GOD yelling at me about "if I came to him first this would never have happened", nor is GOD telling me to go to my room while he thinks up the proper judgment for me. What GOD and I are analyzing is why this problem happened to ME, what am I going to about MY problem and how could I avoid making the same mistakes again. This is what GOD does. If I wanted judgment all I would have to do is go into the other room with my relative/ loved ones and they could shower me with their judgment.

If GOD desires to develop PERFECT MERCY AND PERFECT JUSTICE that is up to GOD. I don't look upon GOD as a GOD with PERFECT MERCY AND PERFECT JUSTICE. Maybe PERFECT MERCY AND PERFECT JUSTICE are logical extension of GOD but I wasn't looking for this in GOD. Maybe these are qualities that you would find in your relationship to GOD but I have never noticed them. I couldn’t detect holiness or a gender either. Again that is just me. I do not expect you to have the same relationship with GOD as I do. I do not expect you to have the same understanding with GOD as I do, I do not expect you to have the same conversations as I do (Jeff are you a sports fan? GOD is a tremendous sport fan, but unfortunately I am not), and I wouldn’t be surprised if you recognized GOD differently as well. I have never trembled in front of GOD. I was never in awe of GOD. I will admit I was impressed. After all, GOD does have the best comic book collection I know of.
I’m not sure where the next few passages of your post are coming from but if...I just....carefully...read- JEFF!! ARE YOU TRYING TO LOGICALLY CRUMBLE MY PERCEPTION OF GOD?!?! WHY YOU!!! Is this what this is all about? And Aloysius your here too and Mmmerf you came back and Ironmonk your here as well-is this-is this some kind of intervention?
Jeff, everyone, anyone, have you ever talked with GOD? I mean really sat down and held a real conversation with GOD? I know that my relationship was real because I can hold it in my hands and refer to it anytime that I want to. I can't expect you to understand what it feels like. I can just explain to you the conversations that we had. I do not believe everything that GOD told me, that would be absurd and GOD wouldn't expect me to believe everything that was told to me. That is the friendship part of the relationship but I will tell you when I needed understanding (whether it was rational or irrational) GOD was there. Quicker than broadband!! If there is one thing that I have learned from GOD it’s that, even though GOD leads you to the door of understanding it is decidedly up to us whether or not we go through the door.

[Guest JeffCR07]

if you are going to refuse to address the intellectual fallacies of your "god" that I brought up, then I suppose there is nothing I can do but say that the case is closed, and that you and I have gotten nowhere. However, I would encourage others to read these post and discern for yourselves which god is the True God, worthy of the name.

[daugher-of-Mary]

[quote]I have never trembled in front of GOD. I was never in awe of GOD. I will admit I was impressed. After all, GOD does have the best comic book collection I know of. [/quote]

How is it that you have never trembled in the presence of the Creator of the Universe? Not only Creator, but Divine Lover who formed you out of nothing and called you into being.

[Aloysius]

because it was not YHWH whom he spoke with. it was someone impersonating Him.

[carrdero]

if you are going to refuse to address the intellectual fallacies of your "god" that I brought up, then I suppose there is nothing I can do but say that the case is closed,

It is impossible to explain or teach you everything about my relationship and my beliefs with GOD on these posts. GOD cannot be contained to forum boards, books, music, TV. GOD doesn't exist for your preconceptions, or my preconceptions or her preconceptions. GOD is GOD. You cannot package GOD for human consumption. GOD cannot be bought ar sold. GOD is not responsible for you or your sins. GOD doesn't think humans are a mistake and GOD has no regrets. If you are looking for a TRUE GOD, one that you can claim and represent for you and/or a society or to conveniently carry around in your pocket and pull out everytime you need it then I think you will be sorely disappointed in any god that you plan to immortalize or revere. GOD is a unique BEing with his own PURPOSE and agenda.
As for my descriptions and beliefs I thought I did a fairly good job. You shouldn't feel bad that I couldn't address everything. I may not have the understanding that it takes to follow some of these threads but I thought some of them were insightful enough. If it makes you feel better there were many posts that I did not receive answers to either.
Maybe that is why I am here on these forums today. To understand how to talk to people about GOD. I'm not here for conversion or to sway people over to "my GOD". I am just here to help people to research their hearts and to recognize what GOD means in their own lives so that they can remember who they are and why they are here. One of the most joyous revelations that I have received through my personal relationship with GOD is the fact that I can now go through entire existences and honestly admit to mysef that I K(NOW) who I AM. That is all I was ever wanted out of my relationship with GOD. Though I am fully aware that there are some people who desire more from GOD. I AM not one of them.