Are We Supposed To Forgive The Devil?

[carrdero]

Wouldn't it be true that if God ever stopped loving us, we would cease to exist?


Apotheoun writes: Yes, because God is the existential efficient cause of all that contingently exists.

I think the way it was presentented to me was that if GOD chose not to exist we would not exist. I don't think it would have to do with LOVE. GOD could still LOVE GOD and us and cease to exist. The only reason GOD would end it all is if GOD is not enJOYing existence and I do not think there is much concern at this moment for that to happen.

[Guest JeffCR07]

[quote]That can't be right. The Angels are above man (so I believe St. Thomas Aquinas said). They have rational souls, and have free will. In fact, their choice was greater than ours are.[/quote]

Zach, just to clarify. The angels are only above man with regards to the sinners here on earth, and the sinners being purified in purgatory. However, the angels are [i]not[/i] above those men like the saints in heaven, or, perhaps an even better example, Mary, who is Queen of Heaven. This is precisely because we are created in the image of God, and the angels are not. We seperate ourselves from God's love for us through sin, and so lower ourselves. But once we are in heaven and partake in the Divine Nature of God we become deified, and are exalted far above all the angels in heaven, just as Todd expressed in his narrative (that was awesome, by the way).

Yes, angels have free will and a rational soul (though they are bound for eternity by the decision that they have already made, but this is only one component of what makes one "made in the image of God" - another is a physical body, which angels lack. Also, I don't think their choice is any greater or less than ours, they simply made it all at once, while we make it over our lifetimes.

Carrdero:

[quote]How could anyone lead you away from GOD? What is the kind of REALationship that you have with GOD that you could easily be misled from? What entity do you know personally who has the power to do this? Has this happened to you persoanally? Can you share these experiences with me?[/quote]

Someone can lead me away from God by encouraging me to sin. I have a far too weak relationship with God, but this is true of all human beings throughout all ages. Plenty of entities have the power to do this, provided my will is not strengthened by prayer and devotion: Food can cause me to fall into gluttony, Girls can cause me to lust, friends can pressure me to sin in a myriad of ways. I myself can lead me away from God by bowing to my own inclination to sin.

[quote]If your theory is that Satan has an "indirect relationship" with me or that he is plotting my downfall on the sidelines than it sounds like he has trouble with getting relationships started (he doesn't sound very efficient either).[/quote]

All of the examples that I gave previously: food causing gluttony, the opposite sex causing lust, etc are all tools that satan uses to lead us away from God. Whether we acknowledge it or not will not change the reality of it, it will only make us less prepared and capable of guarding ourselves against such temptations. On a more practical note, I would argue that ALL sins are related to - and used by - Satan, who is the author of our downfall and damnation. When I look out and witness the countless sins in the world, it looks like he is remarkably efficient to me.

[quote]"the image of GOD" that the proverb (short wise saying used for a long time by many people:adage) speaks of is the imagination-[/quote]

This is still incorrect, as I pointed out in my previous post.

[quote]Does anyone think that a Supreme Being who is capable of infinite love without any preconceived expectations of any entity would knowingly exclude them from the magnitude, from the power of this love? Is this what you were taught? Is this actually how it was explained to you? Yes the choice to love GOD is ours, that is one of the many freedoms we have but I do not believe that GOD would disassociate any entity that would reject, ignore, or just plain not care to get to know GOD. In fact I would believe that GOD would have enough love for the both of them.[/quote]

First, to clear something up. Yes, God's love is eternally extended towards the Devil, however, to reap the fruit and benefits of that love, we must accept it, which is precisely what the Devil refuses to do.

Now, in order to address the second issue, we must understand that there are two types of Divine Will. God's Active Will consists of all those things which He directly acts upon (creation, miracles, rising from the dead, etc etc). His Permissive Will consists of those things which he allows, but does not cause.

Applying this to the question you pose, we understand, and are taught by the Church, that God desires for all of us to come to live in perfect communion with Him, and he desires us to do so freely. In order for us to be free, his Permissive Will allows for us to choose to reject him and thus be damned. Carrdero, if what you were trying to say is true - that we will all be saved regardless of what we do, this denies the essence of our free will, which takes its first roots in spiritual reality. So, that we might freely come to Him, God allows for us to be damned.

[quote]If any human has a fear that any other entity could break a communion with GOD the only thing that I am to conclude is that this human does not understand who GOD is or what GOD means in their lives.[/quote]

I agree with much of this statement. We are to hope and trust in God, and never to despair. This exact principle has been upheld by the Church for 2000 years. As long as we persevere in our love for Christ, satan will not accomplish his goal of seperating us from God. However, I must add on an addendum to your statement. If any human believes that God is not perfectly Just, and that He will not punish those who have sinned against him in a manner that befits their transgression, the only thing that I am to conclude is that this human does not understand who God is or what God means in their lives.

[quote]I would not encourage a relationship where my friends or acquaintences were in "service" to/of me.[/quote]

We are all called to serve each other, with all of our being, just as Christ lived and died in service of us. Any relationship that is not founded on service would greatly worry me.

[quote]You can believe them all you want-that is fine but- if you want to adopt this as one of your truths you better be able to prove or unprove it to yourself or it remains a belief.[/quote]

I agree wholeheartedly with this statement. Saints Augustine, Aquinas, Jerome, Gregory, Francis deSales, and countless others have provided and argued proofs of the catholic faith. Initially I was not going to comment on this, but now that you have brought it up, I have yet to see you back up your assertions with a logical proof of any kind, nor have I seen you use any sources at all aside from your own opinions. I was under the assumption that, because you do not have material from which to back up your stance, you desired us to argue the philosophical validity of your speculations.

[quote]We allow good and evil, right and wrong to exist.[/quote]

God, who is, in Aristotelian terms, "The Good" or [i]summum bonum[/i] would exist whether we exist or not. Good and Evil are not dependent on mankind, they are objective truths.

[quote]Who would want to enter a relationship to a GOD that we were always fearful of displeasing or a GOD who decided who are friends are?[/quote]

Who would want to enter into a relationship with a God before whom we come as equals? I love my parents, but I am not equal to them, and I (try to) always take into consideration that which would displease them before making a decision. What kind of God would refuse to benefit us with justice in the form of punishment for evil deeds? I greatly fear displeasing God, but I love him even more than I fear him, and it is from this love that I desire to do His will and follow in His way.

[quote]GOD never needed us to defend him. GOD is not proud. GOD is not exclusive. GOD is joy.[/quote]

I agree wholeheartedly. God will continue to be God even if all of humanity rises up against him. If any of us here have been prideful, the I humbly want to apologize for it. Please try to understand that in many cases a zealous love of the truth can itself be a temptation to sin through pride, and if this is what has happened here, we are sorry. We should also note that God is Love, and in His Love, he has made us free, and that the most fundamental freedom we have is the ability to choose to be with God or to chose to be seperated from Him. Through our sins, we choose the latter, and this is how we are damned, for in making such a decision, we come to "know him not."

[quote]Then why all the need to study or mention Satan? Why all the need to place emphasis on the existence of Satan? If GOD and Satan do indeed have a problem with each other and our relationship with GOD is indeed rock solid, than the outcome between the two should not concern us or our relationship with GOD.[/quote]

There are a couple flaws in this statement. First, there is no one on earth who has a "rock solid" relationship with God. You sin, I sin, everyone on earth sins, and with each sin, we show God that our relationship with him is not what it should be, that it is not "rock solid." Because our relationship with God is [i]not[/i] rock solid, "the outcome between the two" (God and Satan) [i]does[/i] concern us, and our relationship with God. As long as we are living on this earth, we can turn away from God, reject His Grace, and give in to mortal sin. As long as that door is open, Satan will try his hardest to walk through it, by providing temptations to us which will draw us away from God, and break down our relationship with Him.

I hope this helps to clear some stuff up!

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff

[Tora-Musume]

[quote name='JeffCR07' date='Aug 2 2004, 07:44 AM'] All of the examples that I gave previously: food causing gluttony, the opposite sex causing lust, etc are all tools that satan uses to lead us away from God. Whether we acknowledge it or not will not change the reality of it, it will only make us less prepared and capable of guarding ourselves against such temptations. On a more practical note, I would argue that ALL sins are related to - and used by - Satan, who is the author of our downfall and damnation. When I look out and witness the countless sins in the world, it looks like he is remarkably efficient to me.
[/quote]
[quote]On a more practical note, I would argue that ALL sins are related to - and used by - Satan, who is the author of our downfall and damnation.[/quote]

In this statement, are you saying that there is some satan in us all?


[quote]When I look out and witness the countless sins in the world, it looks like he is remarkably efficient to me.[/quote]


So in this statement, Satan mesmerized entities to do evil things. Like this war that is going on now. Entities are sinning because of Satan? Is it the work of Satan that a pregnant woman kills her baby through abortion because the woman would die if she didn't, due to health reasons? So, Satan causes us to murder the unborn? Satan mesmerizes us in eating unhealthy or lusting for the opposite sex?

[ironmonk]

The saints in Heaven will judge angels.


[b]1 Corin 6:3 [/b]
Do you not know that we will judge angels?


It would be safe to say that at least some of the Saints are above angels, possibly all.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[carrdero]

JeffCR07 writes: Someone can lead me away from God by encouraging me to sin.

Yes but as you develop an open and honest relationship with GOD one of the earliest qualities you will realize about GOD is that there is no anger, there is no judgement there is no offense you can bring to GOD. GOD is very understanding of human condition. God knows we make mistakes, GOD knows we stray from the path, GOD is not expectant of this factor, just very UNDERSTANDING.

JeffCR07 writes: I have a far too weak relationship with God, but this is true of all human beings throughout all ages.

Well I know it is never to late to strengthen your REALationship with GOD. Though I do not think you will be able to strengthen your REALationship through a book because GOD cannot be contained to a book. I don't think it will be strengthened on who you know or where you are because GOD is available and accessable to everyone everywhere. GOD also understands that there will be many people who really would not want to encourage a REALationship with a Supreme Being for one reason or another. GOD has assured me that this is fine that GOD exists with or without our acceptance and that the love and companionship is available to anyone if and when they are ready to begin a sincere friendship. I appreciated this to be one of the most modest and intelligent qualities of GOD

JeffCR07 writes: Plenty of entities have the power to do this, provided my will is not strengthened by prayer and devotion

GOD doesn't want or need our devotion. Sometimes people forget that GOD is Almighty or a Supreme Being. A Supreme Being does not need worship or devotion. GOD is way above and beyond that. GOD has to have this modest quality in order for us to recognize and enter into a fair and respectable REALationship. If it is to be believed that GOD's love is UNCONDITIONAL then devotion is a condition, faithfullness is a condition, worship is a condition. I don't base my REALationships on what kind of devotion I can get from other people and I do not believe that this is a consideration of GOD either.
As far as prayer goes, there are many people who tell me "but Mr. Cardero I pray to GOD all the time I must have a great REALationship with GOD." I usually tell them "yes but are you talking to GOD or with GOD?" In all my experiences the best relationships occur when people are talking and allowing some moments to listen. Many people have forgotten to listen to GOD. They will recite their prayer to GOD and never bother to hang around or look for an answer. Many people who have preconceived notions about GOD will offer their prayers and just assume that they know what answer GOD will give them. This is not a REALationship at all. A REALationship is a two way conversation. It is talking as well as listening.

JeffCR07 writes: Food can cause me to fall into gluttony, Girls can cause me to lust, friends can pressure me to sin in a myriad of ways.

I don't ever remember reading a classified friendship ad from GOD that said no fatties or promiscuous sexual deviants or druggies. In order for GOD to guide or advise us on these matters we have to present the challenge to GOD and GOD has to have a deep understanding of the human condition. This means that we can never be turned away from GOD because if there are two things GOD loves it is a good challenge and chance to offer assistance.

JeffCR07 writes: I myself can lead me away from God by bowing to my own inclination to sin.

You can cancel your REALationship with GOD at anytime but please keep the free complimentary LOVE and the UNDERSTANDING that is from GOD.

JeffCR07 writes: All of the examples that I gave previously: food causing gluttony, the opposite sex causing lust, etc are all tools that satan uses to lead us away from God.

No, these are all examples that we do to ourselves. Any INCORRECT decision that you make in life would be fairly placed upon yourself. If you do not want to be a glutton you will not be a glutton, if you do not want to be a smoker you will not be a smoker. If you do not want to harm or disrespect anyone you will not harm or disrespect anyone. You make your decisions in life not Satan. Satan is a very poor blame for these INCORRECT moments in our lives. GOD on the other hand is a great helping source for us to turn to. Any example you give me will always rely on the will and the decisions of that individual. In all my dealings no entity has ever made me sad, happy, angry or irresponsible. I can only do this to myself.

JeffCR07 writes:When I look out and witness the countless sins in the world, it looks like he is remarkably efficient to me.

What you are witnessing is humans inconsideration and disrespect for others not Satan's. In actuallity (as a society) we are very proficient at doing Satan's job for him (whether he exists or not).

JeffCR07 writes: Please try to understand that in many cases a zealous love of the truth can itself be a temptation to sin through pride, and if this is what has happened here, we are sorry.

I can forgive the zealous Love but I cannot forget that there is alot of people claiming to have the TRUTH. I haven't seen any evidence or PROOF of this TRUTH yet. I have witnissed faith, feelings, opinions, beliefs, doctrine, dogma but I haven't seen anyone present hard practical conclusive evidence to support these TRUTHs that they are proclaiming. Don't get me wrong anyone can say that I believe this or that I put faith in this or my opinion is this or that was the way it was taught to me, I can respect and understand that. But don't claim that you have the TRUTH because you read it somewhere or someone taught it to you or this is the way that it has been going on for 2000 years and that I will just have to deal with it. That is not how I come by my TRUTHs and I don't believe that is how GOD got to be TRUTHFUL either.

JeffCR07 writes: If any human believes that God is not perfectly Just, and that He will not punish those who have sinned against him in a manner that befits their transgression, the only thing that I am to conclude is that this human does not understand who God is or what God means in their lives.

What would be the PURPOSE of GOD exacting or sentencing a punishment or judgement on us? What would be the meaning behind this? What does GOD get from this? Does GOD get a nickel for every soul saved? Does GOD derive some secret pleasure from watching us writhe in temptation? Does GOD never want us to forget that GOD is GOD and we should tremble in GOD's power no matter what we desire to do? This is not friendship, this is not LOVE, this is not a healthy REALationship. Do you have any friends who do this to you? I just need one reason why you think GOD would act/react like this.

JeffCR07 writes: We are all called to serve each other, with all of our being.

Yes because of our decision to do so. It doesn't take a rocket scientist, a priest or pope or even GOD to help us realize that being considerate to your fellow man or woman is a joyous occasion. This is common sense. This is TRUTH. Some people have proven this many times over.

JeffCR07 writes: Any relationship that is not founded on service would greatly worry me.

If we are talking about a REALationship as profound as GOD's friendship and that is how you feel then that will always remain a great concern to you. I am pleased by the fact that when I approach GOD I do not have to walk through a field of eggshells to get to GOD. True friendships are not about worry. Either an entity wants to enter a REALationship with you and accept you as you are or they don't and if they do not want to accept you for who you are then maybe they wouldn't make a great friend for you anyway. This is grade school knowledge. I don't recall GOD ever having a record for turning people away but I am aware of all the entities who refuse to approach GOD.

JeffCR07 writes:I agree wholeheartedly with this statement. Saints Augustine, Aquinas, Jerome, Gregory, Francis deSales, and countless others have provided and argued proofs of the catholic faith.

How can you argue PROOFS for faith. This is a contradicting statement. First, if the PROOFS are refutable which they should be, then they are already TRUTHS. A faith is not a TRUTH. A belief is not a TRUTH.

JeffCR07 writes: I have yet to see you back up your assertions with a logical proof of any kind, nor have I seen you use any sources at all aside from your own opinions. I was under the assumption that, because you do not have material from which to back up your stance, you desired us to argue the philosophical validity of your speculations.

When and where possible in my posts I have tried to use words and phrases like "I believe" or "it was presented to me as" or "in my opinion". In all honesty I cannot give you TRUTH. Even if I had my own Bible that I wrote that claimed to come from the Almighty himself could I get you or anyone to believe anything I had to say or adopt it as a TRUTH. So when applicable I will not tell you it is a TRUTH because just because I have PROVEN or UNPROVEN it to me does not mean this is right for your spirit or existence. If anyone does not believe anything I have said so far, I allow them to enter their own persoanl REALationship with GOD and get the answers for themselves (GOD has the answers). My views are just another way to look at life I do not expect anyone to blindly believe me without PROVING these beliefs to yourself first. Some of these quotes are very difficult to PROVE but I refuse to take them as faith. Faith immediately stops someone in search for the TRUTH. I can be content in these beliefs until another belief PROVES or UNPROVES the ones that I encourage. So far there hasn't been an argument or debate or opinion or belief that has done that and I assure you that I am very open-minded being.

JeffCR07 writes: Good and Evil are not dependent on mankind.

Good and Evil are not dependant on mankind that are manufactured for sale to mankind. I'm not buying.


JeffCR07 writes:Initially I was not going to comment on this, but now that you have brought it up,

Please I want you to be honest with me, if you want to be frank with me be frank with me, if you want to be condescending you can be that too. I want you to know that you can be as approachful to me as you can with GOD.


JeffCR07 writes: Who would want to enter into a relationship with a God before whom we come as equals? I love my parents, but I am not equal to them, and I (try to) always take into consideration that which would displease them before making a decision.

Please don't compare your relationship to GOD as to your parents. If you have noticed through your experiences with your other relationships you don't approach those as you would your parents. This sounds unhealthy and unfair to everyone involved. I know I wouldn't want any of my friends telling me when I should go to bed or telling me I can't go to the dance with Mary Lou. The only difference between you and GOD is the moments that you have existed. GOD is considered the longest existing entity that we know of. With that being said, qualities such as wisdom, knowledge and understanding are bound to be sharp and abundant in GOD. Please do not put GOD on any pedastals that GOD does not want to be put upon.

JeffCR07 writes:As long as we are living on this earth, we can turn away from God, reject His Grace, and give in to mortal sin.

Yes but at no extra cost to you. I don't know about anyone else but if GOD has the power to end my life today, tomorrow or yesterday GOD can do that at any moment. I am grateful for the moments in which I have spent on this planet. Even if it was just a short time. If GOD desires to end existence for me than GOD can but I refuse to live a life of expecting or not expecting to offend or displease GOD. That is not existing freely that is performing and I do not desire to perform for anyone.

JeffCR07 writes: First, there is no one on earth who has a "rock solid" relationship with God.

Oh I don't know about that. I haven't received any complaints from GOD yet.

JeffCR07 writes: I hope this helps to clear some stuff up!

I apologize but as much as I respect you and enjoy talking with you it really doesn't offer me much enlightment.

Edited August 2, 2004 by carrdero

[Aloysius]

now I'm sure whoever you're talking to, it ain't the Thrice Holy God of The Patriarchs and Prophets, it ain't YHWH the definition of existance who is pained by our disobedience. God gave us many Names through His Divine Revelation that we should call Him by, "God" "Lord" "Father" "I AM" "YHWH" "Jesus Christ" "Holy Spirit" "Son of God", none of them are "a supreme being"

God is not a supreme being, He is BEING itself. The definition of existance. You know who the supreme being of this earth is? SATAN. He rules over this earth now and leads us away by appearing as an angel of light. He convinces people he doesn't exist, and then impersonates God to lead people away from the truth.

I don't know about you, but my God DIED ON A CROSS because of my sins. My God FORGIVES and offers me help to overcome my sins. He doesn't just ignore them. My God wants me to be PERFECT as the HEAVENLY FATHER is perfect. God is understanding, but His understanding doesn't mean He ignores our faults, He corrects them.

my God is in war against Satan and his minions. my God is the Commander and Cheif of an Army of Angels who fight the demons who seek the destruction of souls. And My God gave me His sinless mom to help out as well: and my momma wears combat boots.

anyway, done with my shpeil. I'll pray for you and I hope you stop being deceived by this spirit claiming to be God. St. Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle, be our defense against the wickedness and snares of the devil. May God rebuke him, we humbly pray. And do thou, oh Prince of the Heavenly Host, by the power of God cast into hell satan and all the evil spirits who prowl about the world seeking the ruin of souls. Amen.

[carrdero]

Aloysus writes: now I'm sure whoever you're talking to, it ain't the Thrice Holy God of The Patriarchs and Prophets

now that is what I would call a CORRECT statement

Aloysus writes: God is not a supreme being, He is BEING itself.

Supreme-highest rank or authority-highest in degree or quality. I believe that GOD is Supreme and that these are accurate descriptions of GOD. In fact I recently heard that in some organized religions, GOD has just been "super-sized" for those congregational members who want more than just the Supreme portion.

Aloysus writes: I don't know about you, but my God DIED ON A CROSS because of my sins.

What unfathomable sins have you committed and when did this event happen? Do you enjoy sending entities to be crucified on crosses? Is this something your GOD enjoys?

Aloysus writes: God is understanding, but His understanding doesn't mean He ignores our faults, He corrects them.

If he corrects our faults then why does he have to die on the cross for you?

Aloysus writes: I hope you stop being deceived by this spirit claiming to be God.

Me too my fingers are getting tired from typing.
I think that I haven't been deceived as much as I have been in wonder. If your GOD is the "Thrice Holy God of The Patriarchs and Prophets" and you are comfortable with this relationship and all it entails by all means continue this relationship. Don't let me stand in your way. But yeah, I pretty much think we are discussing two independant individual entities here, I apologize for any misunderstanding.

Edited August 2, 2004 by carrdero

[Aloysius]

the devil has appeared to you as an angel of light and you have become his agent.


Jesus Christ died on the Cross because the immensity of humanity's sins demanded death. He suffered and died to forgive us. Suffering is redemptive.

[Guest JeffCR07]

Carrdero, I will truly be praying for you. In this post, I will address the most fundamental problem with the assertions that you make, so please bear with me:

God [i]is[/i] Good: not in singular instances, but in all things, and at all times. God is incapable of doing evil, by virtue of the fact that "The Good" and "God" are eternally coincident, being the same thing.

For this reason, all that is good can be considered to be "of God" and all that is evil can be considered to be "not of God." Thus, God is the wellspring from which all virtues flow, and the virtues are good because they are of God.

In this manner, we see that God contains all the virtues within himself, perfectly.

Justice is a virtue.

The logical extension then, is that God contains within himself Perfect Justice.

Mercy is a virtue.

The logical extension then, is that God contains within himself Perftect Mercy.

These two virtues coincide perfectly in the God whom Jesus Christ taught us to call our Father.

Jesus taught that only one sin (blasphemy against the Spirit) cannot be forgiven. We understand this sin to be a rejection of God's own mercy. All other sins can be forgiven, provided that a penance is done in reparation of the sin (either on earth or in Purgatory).

In this manner, Perfect Justice and Perfect Mercy coincide, for all sins (save a rejecting of Mercy, which, by its very nature cannot be shown mercy) are forgiven and all sins are "paid for." So we see that the Triune God, who is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, adequately contains within himself Perfect Justice and Perfect Mercy.

Now, let us consider the god that you espouse, Carrdero:

While, by virtue of his being god, all the same assumptions can be made, your god cannot adequately contain both Perfect Justice and Perfect Mercy.

You have asserted, multiple times, that there is no external force that can harm one's relationship with God. Moreover, you have asserted that, even if we actively and voluntarily end that same relationship with God we do so "but at no extra cost to you."

The god whom you espouse certainly abounds in Mercy, but he entirely lacks the virtue of Justice for, as you so eloquently put it, there is "no extra cost" if someone rejects God.

The implications of this are far reaching. If your god does not contain Justice, then he is lacking in a particular virtue. If he is lacking in a particular virtue, then he is not, in his essence, the perfect Good. If he is not the perfect Good, then this implies that there is some Good that is external to your god. If there is a Good that is external to your god, then he is no longer Omnipotent and Omniscient, let alone perfect. If these things are true - as they logically must be, your "god" is really not God at all, but simply anothing imperfect entity.

Thus, by logically analyzing your position and your ideas, it can be brought to light that the being you espouse as "God" is not, in fact, a god at all.


I would like to remind anyone who bothers to read this post (I applogize for the length) that there is a more intellectually acceptable option: the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of the Cross, the Risen Lord and the great I AM, who is the Way, the Truth, and the Light, the Word made Flesh, and the eternal Logos.

As I showed in the beginning section of my post, in this God - the True God - Perfect Justice can sit beside Perfect Mercy as a lion sitting with a lamb. Moreover, just as the lion retains its fearsome identity when it sits beside the lamb, so too just Justice retain its identity, even when settled beside Mercy. This, however, is true not of Carrdero's god, but only of the Trinity.

Carrdero, if you wish to reply to this post, please reply to the fundamental argument, rather than select words or phrases. Thanks so much!

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff

[MichaelFilo]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Aug 2 2004, 03:28 PM'] the devil has appeared to you as an angel of light and you have become his agent.


Jesus Christ died on the Cross because the immensity of humanity's sins demanded death. He suffered and died to forgive us. Suffering is redemptive. [/quote]
Maybe I'm wrong, but correct me if I am, God DID NOT have to die on the cross for us, he could of done absolutly nothing but willed that salvation come to mankind and it would indeed come to mankind. However He CHOSE to die on the cross so that our relationship with him is personal, and that we may know His love for us.

So in conclusion, Jesus didn't HAVE to die for us, but it was all God's plan that he would.

If I'm wrong, please correct me.

God Bless,

Mikey

[Aloysius]

well, I think when speaking of God, He makes the rules. you're just saying if He wanted to, He didn't have to make that standard of sacrifice for sin. just like if He wanted to, He didn't have to create the laws of physics, or if He wanted to, He didn't have to create gravity or time or whatever. The way God chooses to operate defines what has to be done and what doesn't, so of course it was God's choice.

[Guest JeffCR07]

bump! waiting for carrdero to reply to my most recent post.

[carrdero]

When I began my search for GOD I was not looking to have the same relationship that Moses or Jesus or any of the 1st Century Christians had. I was not seeking to have the same relationship that 21st Century Christians have. I was not seeking Justice, Mercy, Salvation or prophetic insights. I was not seeking knowledge of heirarchy dogma doctrine or other religious practices. I was not seeking promises, appreciation, acceptance, praise or glory. I was not looking for the last word on Good and Evil, right or wrong. I was looking for a friend in GOD. Not a biblical relationship, not a organized religion relationship but a simple personal relationship like the ones that I conduct in this physical existence. What is GOD to me? GOD is jazz. GOD is a good martial arts film.GOD is a newborn life. I don't expect you to agree or understand my position because you may not even enjoy those things. I am a unique individual with desires, interests, needs and questions and it is comforting to K(NOW) that I have found that through my own personal relationship with GOD. How do I know that I am speaking to GOD? Because the patience, love and understanding of GOD is unmistakable. I also feel that it is GOD because there is only one Being that I know of who could speak to me in the manner that GOD does and get away with it.

Since this relationship has been going on for quite some time one tends to feel comfortable encouraging others to have their own personal relationship with GOD. But many react as if I was from another planet. And you start to wonder and think; MY GOD who doesn't want their own personal relationship with GOD? I have learned there are some people envious of my relationship with GOD. I have been accused of consorting with demons from the same people who have adopted their beliefs from past historians who have acquired their relationship with GOD in the same exact manner that I have. That just because my doctrines and beliefs didn't jibe with the teachings of their church that it is me who must be incorrect. Does any of this sound familiar? There was no reasoning that was applied to any of my conclusions, there was no logic introduced to the debates and I assure you know one meditated on these thoughts or considered them for further insight. What did I receive instead from these modern day Christians? Prayers for my soul.

I believe that there are many people who talk with GOD all the time. I also believe that there are some people that may not let GOD get a word in edgewise. I also believe that there are many people who talk to GOD but do not listen. I will admit a personal relationship with GOD seems unrealistic in this day and age. There are many enticing religions out there who feel that they know exactly what your spirit is desiring and are willing to support it. I opted out from that avenue and I do not regret any part of my relationship with GOD and the way that I chose to encourage it. Oh wait- there is one regret; that in this life, I didn't do it sooner.

"If you talk to GOD, you are praying. If God talks to you, you have schizophrenia."
-Thomas Szasz from “Schizophrenia” in The Second Sin, 1973

Edited August 2, 2004 by carrdero

[Tora-Musume]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Aug 2 2004, 02:28 PM'] the devil has appeared to you as an angel of light and you have become his agent.


[/quote]
If the devil appeared to him as the angel of light, should he be doing evil things as oppose to good things? From my understanding from reading some posts is that Evil is Satan and Good is GOD. Meaning that if you do good things, it's with the help and understanding of GOD. If you are doing bad things or are an accomplice to evil things, you are as what you would call Devil's agent.

Carrdero? Have you done anything evil?
Please be specific. I am not clear on the true evil yet. Thanks.

Aloysius, please explain what makes those that do not understand Catholic religion, (hope I have phrased this sentence correctly) an agent of the devil?

I am here to clarify some information. Thanks.

Tora

[Aloysius]

i said that because he is saying that God is not holy, but an average guy up there in heaven who is not greived by our sins. that is a lie, and to perpetuate this lie is the work of satan. he laughs at the notion that God became man in the person of Jesus Christ and died on the Cross for our sins. That's the devils greatest loss, and it is his goal to make people think it didn't happen so that they won't accept it and he'll get more souls.

carrdero, please explain to me why it took 6000 years for God to start acting the way you describe Him as acting.