Are We Supposed To Forgive The Devil?

[Apotheoun]

[i]I wrote the following little poetic narrative many years ago. Now, it is not meant to be a serious theological work, but is just a simple personal reflection about the nature of Satan's fall and his damnation[/i].


Satan’s Fall

God created the Angelic Hierarchy, and within this hierarchy He gave existence to a being surpassing all the others in beauty, and that being was named Lucifer, the bearer of Light. Lucifer, reveling in his own existence, sees his own beauty as he contemplates his own glorious nature, and in doing this he finds great satisfaction, because from his own perspective nothing in created reality can ever exceed his own excellence. With the recognition of his own beauty he experiences an intense feeling of satisfaction. While still experiencing this wondrous joy, he turns his gaze onto the divine majesty enthroned in Heavens, the source of all being, and thus he begins to contemplate the sacred mystery of the Triune God. He becomes enraptured in the Shekinah of God, but looking deeper and deeper into the glory of the Godhead, he sees to his horror something that he cannot believe or accept. In his mystical contemplation of the radiant light of the glory of God it is revealed to him that he and the entire Heavenly Host will witness the elevation of a creature made of flesh and blood to a state of glory exceeding that of all nine of the Angelic Choirs. He sees that God the Son, the second person of the Blessed Trinity, will condescend to assume human nature, and become man. He cannot bear the thought of this, because from his perspective Almighty God will be abasing Himself in order to exalt a vile animal creature to a glory to which it has no conceivable right. God, clothed in a coarse body of flesh, will sit on the very throne of Heaven, and humanity will be raised into the grandeur of the divine power and majesty, and will be deified in the process. Knowing this to be God's intention, he decides that God must have forgotten the proper glories of the various hierarchies of His own creation, and thus filled with envy and a spirit of rebellion, he decides to resist the divine will. In his revolt against the Holy Trinity Satan knew his fate, for he knew that it would mean his eternal damnation, but his pride was too great, and so he decided that he would never bow down before that contemptible beast of flesh ruling in celestial glory. But what he failed to understand is that God’s love permeates all that He has created, and not even Satan can escape this powerful love of God for His creation. The burning love of God, which is the joy of the saints in the beatific vision, is the very thing that causes pain to Satan and all those who have damned themselves, because they have definitively rejected God, and yet, they can never escape God’s infinite love for them.

[nikkan_hanil]

You beat me to it.

[Tora-Musume]

Apotheoun Thank you for the explanation through your poetic narrative. You have answered my question.

[quote]The burning love of God, which is the joy of the saints in the beatific vision, is the very thing that causes pain to Satan and all those who have damned themselves, because they have definitively rejected God, and yet, they can never escape God’s infinite love for them.
[/quote]

[MC Just]

[quote name='Tora-Musume' date='Aug 1 2004, 11:40 AM'] So you mean to tell me that you are willing to forgive the Devil by providing him with toilet water? And will this toilet water consist of anything or will it be clean toilet water? [/quote]
it will consist of something..... Ah ok I wont go into detail...

[nikkan_hanil]

Sick.

[Tora-Musume]

[quote name='JeffCR07' date='Aug 1 2004, 09:37 AM'] I know for a fact that angels are not created in the image of God - that is a characteristic distinct to humans alone. [/quote]
Please explain what this quote means. Thank You.

[MichaelFilo]

The quote says what it says. Angels are not in the image of God. We, as humans are. Angels are considered animals. One of the speculated reasons for God's punishment on Sodom and Gomorrah (sp?) has been that the people of the town wanted to commit beasality, because angels are of a different species. If they are of a different species then humans, then they cannot be in the image of God. Only humans can.

[qfnol31]

That can't be right. The Angels are above man (so I believe St. Thomas Aquinas said). They have rational souls, and have free will. In fact, their choice was greater than ours are.

Edited to say: Thanks to Todd I remembered to say that they are made in the image of God, just not incarnate. Their will and intellect is in the image of God.

Edited August 2, 2004 by qfnol31

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Aug 1 2004, 10:15 PM'][quote name='Apotheoun' date='Aug 1 2004, 09:17 PM'][quote name='qfnol31' date='Jul 31 2004, 09:49 PM']I would just add to that that we should love our human enemies because they are not damned and haven't completely rejected God until the end of time as has Satan.  They can still choose God, and we should try to convert them, through love of course.[/quote]
I agree, and the distinction that you make is vital, because human beings can repent until the day that they die. Satan, on the other hand, knew what he was doing when he rebelled against God and he cannot repent, because as an immaterial being his will was irrevocably set in opposition to God from the moment that he rejected God's love.[/quote]
God offers love, the devil rejects the love. thus the devil does not receive any of God's love, and the devil eternally rejects God's love thus the devil will never receive any of God's love. and this is why Apotheon said God no longer loves him, for for love to exist between two there must be give and take. God gives, the devil does not take, the action of love is not completed.[/quote]
A slight clarification is necessary, because in my original response to "qfnol31," I was differentiating between man and Satan, and the fact that man, as a hylomorphic being composed of body and soul, can change his will until he dies, but that Satan as an immaterial being knew the consequences of his decision from the moment he made it and his will was set irrevocably from that moment on. This means that Satan does not love God, but God still loves Satan, and always will because God loves everything that He has created. Here is my original post with a few clarifications (in bold face): "[i]I agree, and the distinction that you make is vital, because human beings can repent until the day that they die. Satan, on the other hand, knew what he was doing when he rebelled against God and he [/i][[b]i.e., Satan[/b]][i] cannot repent, because as an immaterial being his [/i][[b]i.e., Satan's[/b]][i] will was irrevocably set in opposition to God from the moment that he [/i][[b]i.e., Satan[/b]] [i]rejected God's love[/i]." Thus, Satan has rejected God's love, but God continues to love Satan, because God loves everything that He has created; in fact, as I said in my little poetic narrative, "[i]The burning love of God, which is the joy of the saints in the beatific vision, is the very thing that causes pain to Satan and all those who have damned themselves, because they have definitively rejected God, and yet, they can never escape God's infinite love for them[/i]."

I apologize for the complexity of this post.

God bless,
Todd

Edited August 2, 2004 by Apotheoun

[qfnol31]

Wouldn't it be true that if God ever stopped loving us, we would cease to exist?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='qfnol31' date='Aug 1 2004, 10:25 PM'] Wouldn't it be true that if God ever stopped loving us, we would cease to exist? [/quote]
Yes, because God is the existential efficient cause of all that contingently exists.

[MichaelFilo]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Aug 2 2004, 01:30 AM'] Yes, because God is the existential efficient cause of all that contingently exists. [/quote]
So God must love the devil, or the devil would cease to exist, correct?

God bless,

Mikey

[qfnol31]

Ego Eimi. I think that's spelled correctly. But yes, He must love the devil for him to exist.

[carrdero]

JeffCR07 writes: Carrdero, before I reply to your previous post, I'm interested to know what position your spirituality is coming from. It seems clear that you are not catholic, though you may be a protestant denomination from the sound of some of the things that you are saying.

My spirituality used to come from alot of different sources-none of them my own. Like anyone who wonders about GOD there are those who constantly seek and search out. It took many years to realize that GOD was always right in front of me and I began to develop my own friendship with GOD that exists and flourishes to this day.
As for my denomination I was baptized Catholic, though I don't yet understand how this information could be useful to you.

JeffCR07 writes: I would define an enemy as one who seeks to lead you away from God.


How could anyone lead you away from GOD? What is the kind of REALationship that you have with GOD that you could easily be misled from? What entity do you know personally who has the power to do this? Has this happened to you persoanally? Can you share these experiences with me?

JeffCR07 writes: I would argue that your belief that he "has personally done nothing to me to fall in the classification as my enemy" would delight him in the utmost, for there is nothing an enemy loves more than for the one whose downfall he is plotting to actually belief him to be a friend.

Yes but I have never met Satan. Either Satan has no desire or time to make my acquaintance or I haven't had the time or desire to make his.I haven't met anyone who knows who Satan is. I 've met people who have heard or read about him-but never met him. There are many entities that I haven't met or have chosen to meet in this lifetime. But as fortunate or as unfortunate as this relationship could have been with Satan, I can honestly tell you that the "meeting" has never taken place. If your theory is that Satan has an "indirect relationship" with me or that he is plotting my downfall on the sidelines than it sounds like he has trouble with getting relationships started (he doesn't sound very efficient either).

JeffCR07 writes: Actually, the "image of God" which is referred to in the book of Genesis - not proverbs - is, as taught by the Church, the union of the human soul with the human body, not at all the "ideas of God."

First I must correct what may have been a slight misunderstanding. I did not say that that the "image of GOD" was in the book of Proverbs I said "the image of GOD" that the proverb (short wise saying used for a long time by many people:adage) speaks of is the imagination- "

JeffCR07 writes: Satan rejected God's in totality, and God loves him no longer, for there is nothing of worth left to love.

If the story is TRUE that there was a Satan and that this Being chose to reject GOD and GOD's love, the big question remains does GOD love the devil. GOD's love has been described reasonably to me as UNCONDITONALLY. This means pure love no conditions. This makes sense to me. Can I prove this? Will you just have to take my word for it? No, but out of all the concepts and theories that were presented to me this one really makes sense. There are many people who choose not to have a REALationship with GOD. Does anyone think that a Supreme Being who is capable of infinite love without any preconceived expectations of any entity would knowingly exclude them from the magnitude, from the power of this love? Is this what you were taught? Is this actually how it was explained to you? Yes the choice to love GOD is ours, that is one of the many freedoms we have but I do not believe that GOD would disassociate any entity that would reject, ignore, or just plain not care to get to know GOD. In fact I would believe that GOD would have enough love for the both of them.

JeffCR07 writes: No offense intended, but this statement is, from a purely intellectual standpoint, ridiculous. Holiness, or Godliness, is intrinsically natural to God himself, and is unattainable to the Devil, who is eternally and fully seperated from God.

No offense recieved. Again maybe another misunderstanding here when I said there is nothing really "holy" about GOD. I meant holy (Set apart for religious use or GOD's service). I don't believe there is a regime to join when you become friends with GOD. I would not encourage a relationship where my friends or acquaintences were in "service" to/of me. The friends and acquaintence that I do have are not all religious and these relationships remain worthy of encouragement to this day. I don't believe GOD would set these standards either. I believe that that is why many people shy away or become disinterested with encouraging a real, open, caring, personal relationship with GOD. With organized religion the relationship with GOD is already defined (not proven) for you. Anyone who has ever developed an honest relationship with GOD knows that no one can ever lead you away. The patience, the conversation, the LOVE and the UNDERSTANDING are far too compelling to just ignore. If any human has a fear that any other entity could break a communion with GOD the only thing that I am to conclude is that this human does not understand who GOD is or what GOD means in their lives.

JeffCR07 writes: Anyone who believes that the Bible contains the True Word of God, and/or believes in the teachings of the Most Holy Tradition of the Catholic Church, has all the proof that they need in the form of Divine Revelation.

You can believe all you want. Believing is another of our freedoms. Believe all you want but this is important- accept nothing until you have proven this belief to be a truth or an untruth. This method works for everything you apply it to. People can tell you, people can advise you, people can teach you, that is fine. You can believe them all you want-that is fine but- if you want to adopt this as one of your truths you better be able to prove or unprove it to yourself or it remains a belief.

JeffCR07 writes: First, God does not engage in "doubt."

GOD does not engage in any of the ways that humans think or judge.

JeffCR07 writes: You feel that, if God is really omnipotent and omniscient, then why would he allow evil to exist.

That is not what I am saying. GOD does not judge right or wrong GOD does not judge good or evil. Humans do. We allow good and evil, right and wrong to exist. We are the judges, we are the jurors. I think GOD has a very good understanding of the human condition. Better than we do but who would want to get to know a GOD who was always judgemental or patronizing or bigoted. Who would want to enter a relationship to a GOD that we were always fearful of displeasing or a GOD who decided who are friends are? Not me!

JeffCR07 writes: This is not the case at all, and it is true pride to think that one can understand all that God does.

When you enter into a sincere and honest relationship with GOD you check your pride and your ego at the door. You can pick it up on the way out but don't be surprised if some of it is missing. I am getting a lot pride from some people that is "puffed up" but it is not from their relationship with GOD it is from their relationship with their church. GOD never needed us to defend him. GOD is not proud. GOD is not exclusive. GOD is joy.

JeffCR07 writes: However, Catholicism teaches and has always taught that we are responsible for our own actions.

Then why all the need to study or mention Satan? Why all the need to place emphasis on the existence of Satan? If GOD and Satan do indeed have a problem with each other and our relationship with GOD is indeed rock solid, than the outcome between the two should not concern us or our relationship with GOD.

Edited August 2, 2004 by carrdero

[carrdero]

Aloysius writes: God offers love, the devil rejects the love. thus the devil does not receive any of God's love, and the devil eternally rejects God's love thus the devil will never receive any of God's love. and this is why Apotheon said God no longer loves him, for for love to exist between two there must be give and take. God gives, the devil does not take, the action of love is not completed.

This post is very good but one should remember there is no measurement of love. Another way to expound on this is to say that yes the love exits between both GOD and Satan it just isn't evolving. Marriages got like this some times.

Edited August 2, 2004 by carrdero