popestpiusx Posted August 1, 2004 Share Posted August 1, 2004 From the Summa: I answer that, Everything which exists, so far as it exists and has a particular nature, tends naturally towards some good; since it comes from a good principle; because the effect always reverts to its principle. Now a particular good may happen to have some evil connected with it; thus fire has this evil connected with it that it consumes other things: but with the universal good no evil can be connected. If, then, there be anything whose nature is inclined towards some particular good, it can tend naturally to some evil; not as evil, but accidentally, as connected with some good. But if anything of its nature be inclined to good in general, then of its own nature it cannot be inclined to evil. Now it is manifest that every intellectual nature is inclined towards good in general, which it can apprehend and which is the object of the will. Hence, since the demons are intellectual substances, they can in no wise have a natural inclination towards any evil whatsoever; consequently they cannot be naturally evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nikkan_hanil Posted August 1, 2004 Share Posted August 1, 2004 [quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Jul 31 2004, 04:58 PM'] You are not supposed to Love the Devil; the Devil has rejected all that is Holy since he rejected God, He is Evil and one is not supposed to Love evil, The Devil is not Man he is an Angel, He is not like us, he is not Torn nor is he Guilty, He is Fully commited to Rebellion agianst God, We Should NOT love that. [/quote] I agree to this one. :wavey: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted August 1, 2004 Share Posted August 1, 2004 No the Demons are not Naturally evil , they where Created Good but have Chosen Evil and now are consumed by it. As angels are, unlike humans, capable of only one Choice in any matter, and then totally deticated to that Choice, the Demons, and Satan himself who chose to Rebel and Fight Godhave become comepletely dedicated to that Cause, it is not that it is the Driving force of their Being it IS their being. As the are totally dedicated at the heart of their being to the sin of Rebellion agianst God( which is sin at its very Nature) they are incapable of either Repentance or anything that is Good. They have nothing Good left in them except the goodness of Existance, the Goodness inherent in Creation of a thing by the Lord, their existance Glorifies the Lord and that is Good, beyond that Goodness the Goodness which they cannot undo their is nothing Good aboutthem and Their is nothing at all Good within them. Thinking that there is is simply a misunderstanding of the nature of Angels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JeffCR07 Posted August 1, 2004 Share Posted August 1, 2004 [quote]JeffCR07 writes: We must draw a distinction between loving our enemies and loving the Father of Lies. I think that we first need to identify why certain entities are our enemies and wonder if we need these particular beings in our life at all. I can assure you that Satan has personally done nothing to me to fall in the classification as my enemy. In fact Satan has never bothered to make himself known to me. Like I mentioned above I have never met Satan but just because I never met him doesn't mean he/she/it exists. JeffCR07 writes:We are commanded to love our enemies because all humans are created in the image of God, and so deserve to be treated with the greatest dignity and respect. You have explained that very sincerely but GOD I think has extended his love to all entities everywhere not just to human beings. And remember the "image of GOD" that the proverb speaks of is the imagination (read:the ideas) of GOD not so much the likeness. JeffCR07 writes: There is nothing holy about the Devil. In my personal relationship with GOD I found that there really is nothing "holy" about GOD either. Very easy going BEing GOD is. JeffCR07 writes: There is nothing in him to love, nothing to respect, and thus there is no hope for him, nor any forgiveness. If we cannot prove the existence of Satan there just may be nothing to discuss about him either. I guess I must apologize to some people but I do tire of all these "campfire stories" of Satan. This battle between good and evil. I'm not sure if people give GOD enough "credit". Why would a highly omnipotent intelligent Being like GOD be engaged in such conflict and doubt as what most religions promote about these two entities? Another aspect that I have observed (that I have also been guilty of) is that human society has a strong tendency to project blame away from themselves and put it onto something else other than themselves. Satan is a effective tool to instill guilt and fear. Parents try to instill fear into their childen with the concept of Satan and when that doesn't work they try to install fear into them with GOD. The whole theory of Satan and Universal Sovreignty and good vs. evil is what has spiritually held most fundamental Christian religions back with their first century brethen instead of propelling them into the new millenium. So when will this all end? When will humans start to take responsibilities for their actions, decisions and consequences? I guess it will stop when people awaken to the fact that they can bring about their own peace instead of their own destruction. Which actually realizes us into the truth that we have a long way to go.[/quote] Carrdero, before I reply to your previous post, I'm interested to know what position your spirituality is coming from. It seems clear that you are not catholic, though you may be a protestant denomination from the sound of some of the things that you are saying. Now, with regards to your reply: 1.) [quote]I think that we first need to identify why certain entities are our enemies and wonder if we need these particular beings in our life at all. I can assure you that Satan has personally done nothing to me to fall in the classification as my enemy. In fact Satan has never bothered to make himself known to me. Like I mentioned above I have never met Satan but just because I never met him doesn't mean he/she/it exists. [/quote] I would define an enemy as one who seeks to lead you away from God. With this in mind, Satan most definately [i]is[/i] your enemy. Moreover, I would argue that your belief that he "has personally done nothing to me to fall in the classification as my enemy" would delight him in the utmost, for there is nothing an enemy loves more than for the one whose downfall he is plotting to actually belief him to be a friend. 2.) [quote]You have explained that very sincerely but GOD I think has extended his love to all entities everywhere not just to human beings. And remember the "image of GOD" that the proverb speaks of is the imagination (read:the ideas) of GOD not so much the likeness.[/quote] Actually, the "image of God" which is referred to in the book of Genesis - not proverbs - is, as taught by the Church, the union of the human soul with the human body, not at all the "ideas of God." Moreover, I would like to point out that God has extended his love to all things, yes, but he has also allowed - in the case of angels and humans - for us to choose to reject that love. Satan rejected God's in totality, and God loves him no longer, for there is nothing of worth left to love. 3.) [quote]In my personal relationship with GOD I found that there really is nothing "holy" about GOD either. Very easy going BEing GOD is.[/quote] No offense intended, but this statement is, from a purely intellectual standpoint, ridiculous. Holiness, or Godliness, is intrinsically natural to God himself, and is unattainable to the Devil, who is eternally and fully seperated from God. 4.) [quote]If we cannot prove the existence of Satan there just may be nothing to discuss about him either. I guess I must apologize to some people but I do tire of all these "campfire stories" of Satan. This battle between good and evil. I'm not sure if people give GOD enough "credit". Why would a highly omnipotent intelligent Being like GOD be engaged in such conflict and doubt as what most religions promote about these two entities? Another aspect that I have observed (that I have also been guilty of) is that human society has a strong tendency to project blame away from themselves and put it onto something else other than themselves. Satan is a effective tool to instill guilt and fear. Parents try to instill fear into their childen with the concept of Satan and when that doesn't work they try to install fear into them with GOD. The whole theory of Satan and Universal Sovreignty and good vs. evil is what has spiritually held most fundamental Christian religions back with their first century brethen instead of propelling them into the new millenium. So when will this all end? When will humans start to take responsibilities for their actions, decisions and consequences? I guess it will stop when people awaken to the fact that they can bring about their own peace instead of their own destruction. Which actually realizes us into the truth that we have a long way to go[/quote] There is a lot of editorializing here, but I will try to focus on the points of intellectual debate. [quote]If we cannot prove the existence of Satan there just may be nothing to discuss about him either.[/quote] Anyone who believes that the Bible contains the True Word of God, and/or believes in the teachings of the Most Holy Tradition of the Catholic Church, has all the proof that they need in the form of Divine Revelation. If you do not believe in Satan, then say so, but if you do (as evidenced by your advocating the opinion that he should be shown forgiveness) then this comment is pretty irrelevant. [quote]I'm not sure if people give GOD enough "credit". Why would a highly omnipotent intelligent Being like GOD be engaged in such conflict and doubt as what most religions promote about these two entities? [/quote] First, God does not engage in "doubt." Second, however, I would like to argue your fundamental premise. You feel that, if God is really omnipotent and omniscient, then why would he allow evil to exist. The fundamental flaw with such an argument is that it implies the following statement. "Because God is Omnipotent and Omniscient, then I will always understand His ways." This is not the case at all, and it is true pride to think that one can understand all that God does. [quote]human society has a strong tendency to project blame away from themselves and put it onto something else other than themselves. Satan is a effective tool to instill guilt and fear. Parents try to instill fear into their childen with the concept of Satan and when that doesn't work they try to install fear into them with GOD.[/quote] You are right to say that we (society in general) do tend to project our own blame upon others. However, Catholicism teaches and has always taught that we are responsible for our own actions. Moreover, while I think that the last two sentences are borderline-editorial, I will address them just to cover all my bases. Until a child reaches an age where they do what is right and wrong simply out of a love for Jesus Christ, and a desire to be close to Him, a holy fear is not a bad thing at all. A mother threatens "time out" if her child disobeys, and this is a good thing. It is good precisely for the reason you described in the first sentence. It teaches children that their actions have real consequences, and that those consequences should be considered before the action is taken. Truly, I'm praying for you. - Your Brother In Christ, Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popestpiusx Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 Good post, Jeff! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 (edited) [quote name='qfnol31' date='Jul 31 2004, 09:49 PM'] I would just add to that that we should love our human enemies because they are not damned and haven't completely rejected God until the end of time as has Satan. They can still choose God, and we should try to convert them, through love of course. [/quote] I agree, and the distinction that you make is vital, because human beings can repent until the day that they die. Satan, on the other hand, knew what he was doing when he rebelled against God and he cannot repent, because as an immaterial being his will was irrevocably set in opposition to God from the moment that he rejected God's love. Edited August 2, 2004 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nikkan_hanil Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 I just think loving the devil is ridiculous. Love is a powerful thing. God is love. Think the devil would like love? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tora-Musume Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 [quote name='JeffCR07' date='Aug 1 2004, 01:45 PM'] Actually, the "image of God" which is referred to in the book of Genesis - not proverbs - is, as taught by the Church, the union of the human soul with the human body, not at all the "ideas of God." Moreover, I would like to point out that God has extended his love to all things, yes, but he has also allowed - in the case of angels and humans - for us to choose to reject that love. Satan rejected God's in totality, and God loves him no longer, for there is nothing of worth left to love. [/quote] If the Devil rejected GOD's love in totality, and GOD loves the Devil no longer, that means that GOD has chosen to reject the Devil. Can GOD choose to reject whom ever GOD chooses not too love? Can GOD reject me if I choose not to love GOD? From the way this quote is written, GOD has rejected. GOD Rejects?!?!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nikkan_hanil Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 Yes, God loves the devil regardless of his choice to accept his love, Tora-Daughter. Similar to how He still loves the souls of the damned; His own creation who rejected God's gift just as Satan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tora-Musume Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 [quote name='nikkan_hanil' date='Aug 1 2004, 10:02 PM'] Yes, God loves the devil regardless of his choice to accept his love, Tora-Daughter. Similar to how He still loves the souls of the damned; His own creation who rejected God's gift just as Satan. [/quote] With this statement, you are saying that even though the Devil chose to reject GOD's. GOD still loves the Devil? So GOD does not reject anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 God offers love, the devil rejects the love. thus the devil does not receive any of God's love, and the devil eternally rejects God's love thus the devil will never receive any of God's love. and this is why Apotheon said God no longer loves him, for for love to exist between two there must be give and take. God gives, the devil does not take, the action of love is not completed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 [quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Jul 31 2004, 05:58 PM'] You are not supposed to Love the Devil; the Devil has rejected all that is Holy since he rejected God, He is Evil and one is not supposed to Love evil, The Devil is not Man he is an Angel, He is not like us, he is not Torn nor is he Guilty, He is Fully commited to Rebellion agianst God, We Should NOT love that. [/quote] I totally agree with Don here. Hate what is evil, the devil is the father of evil. The devil is evil, we are to hate the devil. I would not knowingly give him water, I would not knowingly give him the time of day. He is a deceiver and cannot be reasoned with. He is to be battled. He is to be hated. If he appears, rebuke him in Christ's name and call on your Gaurdian Angel to battle for you, as Saint Pio did. He appears as an angel of light. He even appeared as the Virgin Mary to Saint Pio, but Saint Pio was wiser than the devil, Saint Pio tested him and found that it was he. [b]1 John 4:1[/b] Beloved, do not trust every spirit but test the spirits to see whether they belong to God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. [b]2 [/b]This is how you can know the Spirit of God: [u]every spirit that acknowledges Jesus Christ come in the flesh be longs to God[/u], [b]3 [/b][u]and every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus does not belong to God. [/u]This is the spirit of the antichrist that, as you heard, is to come, but in fact is already in the world. The devil will get you to use your own reasoning against you to cause you to fall. Just as he did Eve. Do not love the devil, for the devil is evil. We are to love our enemies, which are human, made in the likeness of God. The priest on LT is wrong and preaches heresy. Some bits and pieces from the Catechism: 414 Satan or the devil and the other demons are fallen angels who have freely refused to serve God and his plan. Their choice against God is definitive. They try to associate man in their revolt against God. 2482 "A lie consists in speaking a falsehood with the intention of deceiving."281 The Lord denounces lying as the work of the devil: "You are of your father the devil, . . . there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies."282 God Bless, ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tora-Musume Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 [quote name='Aloysius' date='Aug 1 2004, 10:15 PM'] God offers love, the devil rejects the love. thus the devil does not receive any of God's love, and the devil eternally rejects God's love thus the devil will never receive any of God's love. and this is why Apotheon said God no longer loves him, for for love to exist between two there must be give and take. God gives, the devil does not take, the action of love is not completed. [/quote] Please explain why the Devil and GOD must love each other in order for the love to be completed. GOD loves the Devil but the Devil does not love GOD. Should that be enough? Can't love be given without being taken? I give love to all. Whether all rejects or takes my love, I know I have given my love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 not only does the Devil not love God back, but the devil does not accept that love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nikkan_hanil Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 It's incomplete because the devil rejects, yes? It's not the love between the two, but the love of one for an enemy. "Can't love be given without being taken?" Yes, but doesn't mean Satan's gonna take it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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