Okay. I Figure Go Ahead And Put This Out Front

[Cathurian]

(Note: my current policy on the subject is to not take any action unless I am *absolutely sure* it is alright, even if it means I have to suffer my whole to avoid even the possibility of sin. So I'm not saying this is definitely okay, I'm saying I don't know, and that's why I'm posting this at all.)

Alrighty, I'm a transsexual. For those of you who aren't up on this stuff, that means I do not feel comfortable in my body or gender role, that it's chronic, that it feels really, really awful sometimes, and that the one and only thing that can be done about it (so say psychologists) is to take horomone pills for a few years and get surgery in order to transition the body into the other biological sex; in other words, get a "sex change".

Oh, yes. That's reportedly the only way. They tried *everything* to cure transsexuals -- and not just everything within sense, either; I'm talking experimental electric shock aversion therapy and other such dangerous things. A lot of these folks were also Christian, so of course this was all done with prayers to God, asking that He please make it stop. Because come on -- who here wants to have [b]major surgery[/b], go through a second puberty (that's what the pills do), and [i]still[/i] not come out completely right? Who wants to either keep a terrible secret or risk getting ostracized or even killed? Nobody. Surely not my Catholic girlfriend , who almost joined the army in order to "prove" that she could be a real boy and didn't have to transition into a female, but later transitioned anyway because she was at the point where she could no longer function in day-to-day life and was on the brink of suicide every night. Surely not poor ----, a very, very strong Christian who was so convinced he couldn't go through with transition that he got married (as many transsexuals do, thinking it will make the torment stop), but later had to do it anyway, when he finally reached the same depths. Yes, with a wife and kids! Know why? Because if he didn't, he would probably die. Do you know what the 50-50 ratio is? It's a rather grim statistic which shows the ratio of transsexuals who off themselves before they transition to the ones who complete transition. There are even people who get 80+ (eighty, that's not a typo) before they break, and transition then, just so they can have their last years in peace. And with the internet, you can google up many, many, many sad stories just like Ralph's; so many people get married and have kids in the hopes that that will "cure" them.

When I say "torment", I do not exaggerate. I've noticed that Catholics are generally a lot more aware of the differences between the sexes and their respective gender roles than your average person. Right now, I'm grateful for that, because it'll help you see where I'm coming from when I say that feeling as if you are in the wrong body and gender role affects you EVERY SINGLE DAY. But let me take a moment and put forward some things which might help you understand just what it's like a little better.

For girls, click this link. It does a good job of explaining what it's like, so say most MTF (male-to-female) transsexuals. [url="http://transsexual.org/mystory.html"]http://transsexual.org/mystory.html[/url]

For guys, imagine what it would be like to have hips and breasts -- big lumps of you that shouldn't be there. Sometimes it feels like you have pillows strapped all over you, and sometimes it feels like you're too heavy at the waist and thighs, and unbalanced. Girls come up to you, thrust magazines in your face, and ask what color prom dress you're going to wear. People expect you to have a boyfriend and drool over the male actors in films. Guys never treat you like one of the guys -- they're always trying to win you over, and being extra-polite and sometimes nervous in your presence. You menstruate every month. You're short and weak, it's much harder to gain muscle mass, and obscenely difficult to make it show. You're always accused of being butch, and it's very hard to make any friends at all, because girls are treating you like a girl and want to do girly things with you, and guys are always far more reserved than you like and thinking about how they're going to go out with you.

Oh, and one more thing, just to put it all in perspective. There was a transsexual my girlfriend knew who was also shut up in the hospital with cancer. She said being transsexual was worse than the cancer was.

I'm left to wonder why, if transsexuality is a psychological problem, that it can't be cured. I wonder why the fervent prayers of Christian transsexuals are not answered.

I did google the matter, but, as it's very rare, it was hard to find anything. I did see one article, though, that said the Church believed it was a disorder, but in the case of uncurable transsexuality, sex changes were sometimes an option. However, they strongly discouraged it.

I know how this works in practice, too. See, in order to get your horomone pills and surgery, you are required to undergo a psychological examination. This is because transitioning is irreversible and they're not going to just some fetishist (or drag queen, or whoever) waltz in and make permanent changes to themselves without a serious condition. When the psychologist confirms that you are transsexual, you get a letter, and all you have to do is show this to the church and they give you the thumbs-up. I know because my girlfriend has done it. She also checked with the Eastern Orthodox. They ok'ed it too, and said it was fine as long as she wasn't homosexual (which in the male-to-female's case, would mean having sex with females.)

And for the record, I'm FTM, which is female-to-male, so I'd be getting testosterone pills and surgery to remove my breasts.

That's all, so post some feedback here if you have any. I just wish there were something I could do. Protestants insist I'm going to hell, but I tell you -- no one who has told me that has been able to tell me what to do about my situation. If you think it's completely wrong and I shouldn't transition, then please, for sake of all that is good and holy try to tell me what to do.

Edited January 11, 2005 by cmotherofpirl

[Paladin D]

I'm so extremely sorry to hear that, I never was a transsexual. I will pray for you.

I don't know what else to say...

[Paladin D]

Come on people...

[cmotherofpirl]

I don't know what the exact Church teaching is on this, and I am sure someone will look it up.
I do know several victims of sex abuse who have told me their bodies are foreign objects to them, and they find no comfort in their existance. I think your feelings must be somewhat similar. Your body is your enemy. Its not something you have asked for or deserved.
It is not something you go to hell for either.

The only way I know to survive pain and suffering is to offer it to Christ, who suffered for us.
Here is a little bit on suffering from Peter Kreeft who says everything better than anyone else:
3. Because Christ entered into our sufferings, suffering is now a way of entering more deeply into Christ. We are never closer to Christ than when we share his cross.


4. This intimacy through suffering, when freely chosen, can bring about something exceedingly strange and wonderful: a deep, strong, and unmistakably authentic joy. To experience even little sprinkles of the joy of the saints is to praise the depth of the divine mercy in allowing us to share this unique and incomparable intimacy with Christ.


The difference between the Creator and the creature is incomparably greater than the difference between suffering and joy. That is why his sufferings are incomparably better than all the world's joys — not because they are sufferings but because they are his. It is an utterly profitable bargain to accept his cross, because he is on it.


5. Suffering has become redemptive not only for the one who suffers but also for the ones for whom he suffers. Vicarious atonement is a mystery but not an exception: We can share in it. If we are "in Christ" (that primary mystery of solidarity, of incorporation), we, like him, can offer up our sufferings to the Father-and he uses them. They become seeds or rainwater, and something beautiful springs up that we seldom see in this life.


If you offer up your sufferings today, in faith, to the Master of the universe, then someone else, perhaps a hundred years and a thousand miles away, will have the strength to live and love and hope — and if not, not. There is no power in the universe greater than suffering love. Love without suffering is like water; suffering without love is like potassium; put them together and you get an explosion. That explosion shattered the chains of hell and opened the gates of heaven two thousand years ago. And it continues.


How does it work? In his movie Hannah and Her Sisters, Woody Allen plays an atheist son of a Jewish family who in an argument asks, "If there is a God, why are there Nazis?" His father replies, "How should I know? I don't even know how the can opener works." The wisdom of Job: we don't know. To quote C. S. Lewis again, "When I lay these questions before God I get no answer. But a rather special sort of 'No answer' . . . Like 'Peace, child; you don't understand'" (A Grief Observed).


If you are Catholic, I think you need to contact your local diocese and see what the experts say. You can be assured you will be prayed for, no matter what decision you make.

[Dave]

Actually, I can say for sure that the Church doesn't approve of changing one's sex. When we were conceived, God made us the sex He intended us to be, and He doesn't make mistakes.

That said, I can't even begin to imagine the struggle that a transsexual must go through. Have you considered seeing an orthodox Catholic counselor? Are there any where you live?

Edited July 29, 2004 by Dave

[Cathurian]

Thank you cmother. I know exactly what you mean...when I got grounded for a month for going to Mass, I must say that it was surprsingly...great [i]fun[/i]

[Cathurian]

Oh, and Dave, I can't really get in touch with many people. I can try phoning the local church from a payphone after school, once it resumes, but that's about the only thing I have open for me.

[BLAZEr]

Therapeutic sex therapy to change your gender (whether through surgery or hormonal corrections) is a gravely disordered activity. This means that it is a mortal sin if done with full consent.

The church teaches that feeling like your body doesn't fit is a clear sign of psychological issues. I encourage you to talk to a good Catholic psychotherapist who can help you to deal with these feelings, maybe even prescribe medication to help you. I strongly discourage you from pursuing any therapeutic sex therapy procedures.

[universal]

I implore you to not go through with this sex-change!!!
You will never been comfortable with yourself going down this road. You will always know that you are not the sex you are pretending to be, you will always be the sex that you were born as, doesn't matter what you look like and what chemicals are streaming around your body.
You will never be fertile mascarading as the opposite gender. It will never fit.

If I didn't care about you I wouldn't bother writing this, I'm not being dogmatic or uncaring, this is a serious issue. You can't go back from this if you choose to perform it.

Seek help from an orthodox Catholic counsellor, someone who is concerned with your immortal soul which those psychologists you speak of are not concerned at all with, or who have a perverted idea of what that means.

And remember that this suffering is only temporary, always look towards eternity with the Lord in Heaven where all these problems will be wiped away. During this short time on earth our sufferings can be a source of joy if we offer them up to the Lord. You are always greatly loved by God, He formed you, sure He didn't intend you to have such a problem which sadly is a result of man's sinfulness, but He formed you in the gender you are and you are His beautiful creation. Don't try and second guess God, but ardently seek His help in healing what problems are in your heart and mind as well as the strength to endure those problems.

I will be praying for you ardently!!!

Edited July 29, 2004 by universal

[Lil Red]

i have no words of advice, just many, many, many showers of prayers going up to Heaven for you.

[Cathurian]

I thought I'd just give this a hearty bump because of what I found.

A Vatican source said the text was prepared largely by Jesuit Father Urbano Navarrete, now a retired canon law professor at Rome's Gregorian University. In 1997, Father Navarrete wrote an article on transsexualism in an authoritative canon law journal. The document was signed by Cardinal Eduardo Martinez Somalo, the Vatican's head of religious orders, and urges its recipients not to divulge the contents, owing to "the delicacy and complexity of the situation."

[b]The Vatican document concludes that sex change procedures could be morally acceptable in certain extreme cases if a medical probability exists that it will "cure" the patient's internal turmoil.[/b]

This checks out with what my girlfriend told me. She said she asked a priest about her situation, and he gave her the thumbs up, and then she asked an Eastern Orthodox priest just to see what they thought, and he approved it as well. I've heard stories on PM about priests lying about Church policy, though, so I didn't count that as proof that it was ok, but it fits with what I found above.

[marielapin]

[quote name='Cathurian' date='Aug 2 2004, 05:52 PM'] I thought I'd just give this a hearty bump because of what I found.

A Vatican source said the text was prepared largely by Jesuit Father Urbano Navarrete, now a retired canon law professor at Rome's Gregorian University. In 1997, Father Navarrete wrote an article on transsexualism in an authoritative canon law journal. The document was signed by Cardinal Eduardo Martinez Somalo, the Vatican's head of religious orders, and urges its recipients not to divulge the contents, owing to "the delicacy and complexity of the situation."

[b]The Vatican document concludes that sex change procedures could be morally acceptable in certain extreme cases if a medical probability exists that it will "cure" the patient's internal turmoil.[/b]

This checks out with what my girlfriend told me. She said she asked a priest about her situation, and he gave her the thumbs up, and then she asked an Eastern Orthodox priest just to see what they thought, and he approved it as well. I've heard stories on PM about priests lying about Church policy, though, so I didn't count that as proof that it was ok, but it fits with what I found above. [/quote]
If you want an orthodox answer post the question on EWTN's website.

As a side note the only thing I have ever seen from the Vatican on this subject which oks the sex change is if the person was born with both sets of genitalia (and yes it happens). But these are extreme cases. I think you would be safe asking the experts on EWTN for their wisdom, because the last time I read over my examination of conscience it listed sex change under the mortal sin category.

[franciscanheart]

praying for you.... dont know what else to say

[cathgirl]

Prayers! :hearts:

[franciscanheart]

I apologize if this comes off the wrong way.....

I do not know what it feels like to be stuck in the wrong body.
I in no way compare any suffering of mine to your own.
I can't even say I can understand, because I can't.

I do have questions though, not because I am trying to be rude but because I am curious.

You have a girlfriend and you have not had surgery?

You feel this is the only option?

You seriously feel that with the grace of God you can not live through this and be a stronger person because of it?



How often is this done?

Do a lot of Catholics do this to escape feelings that could possibly be overcome with the grace of God?


Again, I'm not trying to be rude but I do NOT understand this at all.