Grave Matter

[Guest JeffCR07]

that was awesome, phat. especially the bit where you said

[quote]also, through prayer to God regarding venial sin or partaking of the sacrament regarding mortal sin, forgiveness is received rather you do the penance or not. however, the effects of sin on the body of Christ cannot be undone until the penance is performed.[/quote]

That is exactly what I was trying to say, but wasn't eloquent enough to get across

[phatcatholic]

[b]Eph 4:25[/b] Therefore, putting away falsehood, let every one speak the truth with his neighbor, for we are members one of another


i'm w/ ya bro

[Guest JeffCR07]

Amen! so is God, and if God is with us, who can be against us?

[XIX]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Jul 29 2004, 12:14 PM'] also, note that forgiveness of mortal sin can only be obtained through the sacrament of reconciliation. praying to God for His forgiveness outside of the sacrament forgives venial sin--and mortal sin, but only if there is a dire reason why the sacrament can't be received and only under the condition that the sacrament be received as soon as that obstacle is no longer present.

dire reason or not, forgiveness of mortal sin is always linked to the sacrament of reconciliation.

also, through prayer to God regarding venial sin or partaking of the sacrament regarding mortal sin, forgiveness is received rather you do the penance or not. however, the effects of sin on the body of Christ cannot be undone until the penance is performed.

from the catechism:
[b]1451 [/b]Among the penitent's acts contrition occupies first place. Contrition is "sorrow of the soul and detestation for the sin committed, together with the resolution not to sin again."50

[b]1452 [/b]When it arises from a love by which God is loved above all else, contrition is called "perfect" (contrition of charity). Such contrition remits venial sins; it also obtains forgiveness of mortal sins if it includes the firm resolution to have recourse to sacramental confession as soon as possible.51

[b]1453 [/b]The contrition called "imperfect" (or "attrition") is also a gift of God, a prompting of the Holy Spirit. It is born of the consideration of sin's ugliness or the fear of eternal damnation and the other penalties threatening the sinner (contrition of fear). Such a stirring of conscience can initiate an interior process which, under the prompting of grace, will be brought to completion by sacramental absolution. By itself however, imperfect contrition cannot obtain the forgiveness of grave sins, but it disposes one to obtain forgiveness in the sacrament of Penance.52

[b]1456 [/b]Confession to a priest is an essential part of the sacrament of Penance: "All mortal sins of which penitents after a diligent self-examination are conscious must be recounted by them in confession, even if they are most secret and have been committed against the last two precepts of the Decalogue; for these sins sometimes wound the soul more grievously and are more dangerous than those which are committed openly."54

When Christ's faithful strive to confess all the sins that they can remember, they undoubtedly place all of them before the divine mercy for pardon. But those who fail to do so and knowingly withhold some, place nothing before the divine goodness for remission through the mediation of the priest, "for if the sick person is too ashamed to show his wound to the doctor, the medicine cannot heal what it does not know."55

[b]1459 [/b]Many sins wrong our neighbor. One must do what is possible in order to repair the harm (e.g., return stolen goods, restore the reputation of someone slandered, pay compensation for injuries). Simple justice requires as much. But sin also injures and weakens the sinner himself, as well as his relationships with God and neighbor. Absolution takes away sin, but it does not remedy all the disorders sin has caused.62 Raised up from sin, the sinner must still recover his full spiritual health by doing something more to make amends for the sin: he must "make satisfaction for" or "expiate" his sins. This satisfaction is also called "penance."

[b]1856 [/b]Mortal sin, by attacking the vital principle within us - that is, charity - necessitates a new initiative of God's mercy and a conversion of heart which is normally accomplished within the setting of the sacrament of reconciliation:

[b]1861 [/b]Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God's forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ's kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.

[b]1863 [/b]Venial sin weakens charity; it manifests a disordered affection for created goods; it impedes the soul's progress in the exercise of the virtues and the practice of the moral good; it merits temporal punishment. Deliberate and unrepented venial sin disposes us little by little to commit mortal sin. However venial sin does not break the covenant with God. With God's grace it is humanly reparable. "Venial sin does not deprive the sinner of sanctifying grace, friendship with God, charity, and consequently eternal happiness."134


pax christi,
phatcatholic [/quote]
Wait?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

I'm more confused than ever now!!!


I'll try to keep this simple, because I think you are answering all of the questions that I haven't asked:

Say you're in a state of mortal sin. You repent, and 5 hours later, you go to confession. Are you still in a state of mortal sin in those five hours?

I'm not questioning the fact that we are to go to the sacrament of pennance the ASAP, because I know it's crucial that we do that. I know that you aren't fully absolved of the sin until you go to confession. I only want to know what your state is for that five hours I was talking about.

[XIX]

Geez...

I'm sorry if that last post sounded over the top. I'm kind of in panic mode right now.

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='XIX' date='Jul 30 2004, 09:49 AM'] Wait?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

I'm more confused than ever now!!!


I'll try to keep this simple, because I think you are answering all of the questions that I haven't asked:

Say you're in a state of mortal sin. You repent, and 5 hours later, you go to confession. Are you still in a state of mortal sin in those five hours?

I'm not questioning the fact that we are to go to the sacrament of pennance the ASAP, because I know it's crucial that we do that. I know that you aren't fully absolved of the sin until you go to confession. I only want to know what your state is for that five hours I was talking about. [/quote]
deep breaths bro, i'm here for ya

to answer ur question, if a real and dire obstacle kept you from receiving the sacrament until 5 hours after your prayer, then your prayer would work to forgive your sin, under the condition that you receive the sacrament as soon as the 5 hours were up.

it kinda works in reverse. as soon as you receive the sacrament, the prayer you made 5 hours before becomes effective (that's how i understand it. apotheoun?)

however, if something like laziness or embarassment kept you from receiving the sacrament for another 5 hours, then you would be in a state of mortal sin until you finally went to confession. this is b/c there was no serious obstacle that kept you from going to confession after you said your prayer.

i hope that helps.

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[b]ps:[/b] in through the nose, out through the mouth, in through the nose, out through the mouth. counting backwards from 10 also helps

[XIX]

Thank you so much.

I'm calm right now...or to be safe, I'll just say "calmer"

You people seriously rock. :headbang:

[Quietfire]

Uh, oh.
I have a question(s).

Hyphothetical, since this has always intrigued me.

I will use me as a subject, and just in case anyone forgot.
I have been baptised in the Church ONLY. No communion, No confirmation. K?

Ok, lets say I commited a mortal sin. Could I still be received in the Church?
One has to repent. But how would that work for my situation as far as not being received yet?

Ok, what if I received the eucharist, not being received in the Church and all? Not now, mind you. But lets say, If I didnt know it was a sin, does that still count as a sin? Would I need to confess it now, even though I havent been received yet, knowing now that it was a sin.

Isnt fornicators the same as adulterers?

What is a perfect act of contrition? Any examples? Im sure it isnt one specific act of contrition that is applied to any mortal sin, right? Or is it up to the priest?

Sorry, but these are the things that fly around in my head when Im tired. Just curious.

Peace.

Edited August 1, 2004 by Quietfire

[phatcatholic]

i don't believe anything is keeping you from receiving your First Confession. that's what children do before they receive First Communion.

[quote]Ok, what if I received the eucharist, not being received in the Church and all?  Not now, mind you.  But lets say, If I didnt know it was a sin, does that still count as a sin?[/quote]
i think it would be a venial sin, since it is objectively wrong regardless of our knowledge of it. also, b/c you did it w/o knowledge of its sinfulness, its venial instead of mortal.

[quote]Ok, lets say I commited a mortal sin.  Could I still be received in the Church? One has to repent.  But how would that work for my situation as far as not being received yet?[/quote]
admittedly, i'm not as familiar w/ special cases like yours. as far as i know, nothing is stopping you from going to confession, which you would have to do before you can be forgiven of mortal sin and receive your First Communion.

[quote]  Would I need to confess it now, even though I havent been received yet, knowing now that it was a sin.[/quote]
yes

[quote]Isnt fornicators the same as adulterers? [/quote]
no. fornicators are [i]single [/i]individuals who have sex outside the bonds of marriage. adulterers are [i]married [/i]individuals who have sex outside the bonds of marriage (in that they have sex w/ someone other then the person they are married to)

[quote]What is a perfect act of contrition?  Any examples?  Im sure it isnt one specific act of contrition that is applied to any mortal sin, right?  Or is it up to the priest?[/quote]
a perfect act of contrition is a prayer to God for forgiveness that is concerned first and foremost w/ the heart of God, who we have offended by our sin. from the catechism:[list]
[*][b]Contrition[/b]

[b]1451 [/b]Among the penitent's acts contrition occupies first place. Contrition is "sorrow of the soul and detestation for the sin committed, together with the resolution not to sin again."50

[b]1452 [/b]When it arises from a love by which God is loved above all else, contrition is called "perfect" (contrition of charity). Such contrition remits venial sins; it also obtains forgiveness of mortal sins if it includes the firm resolution to have recourse to sacramental confession as soon as possible.51

[b]1453 [/b]The contrition called "imperfect" (or "attrition") is also a gift of God, a prompting of the Holy Spirit. It is born of the consideration of sin's ugliness or the fear of eternal damnation and the other penalties threatening the sinner (contrition of fear). Such a stirring of conscience can initiate an interior process which, under the prompting of grace, will be brought to completion by sacramental absolution. By itself however, imperfect contrition cannot obtain the forgiveness of grave sins, but it disposes one to obtain forgiveness in the sacrament of Penance.52

(References: [b]50 [/b]Council of Trent (1551): DS 1676. -- [b]51 [/b]Cf. Council of Trent (1551): DS 1677. -- [b]52 [/b]Cf. Council of Trent (1551): DS 1678; 1705.)
[/list]
[quote]Sorry, but these are the things that fly around in my head when Im tired.  Just curious.[/quote]
its all good. i wish i could be of more help. you may want to consult a priest w/ these questions.

btw, what prevents you from receiving the remaining sacraments of initiation (confirmation, Eucharist)?

pax christi,
phatcatholic

Edited August 2, 2004 by phatcatholic

[cmotherofpirl]

Since you are a baptised adult you will go to confession before you recieve Holy Communion. If you went to Communion not knowing it was a mortal sin to do so, it can't be held against you since you had no clue.

Formication is unmarried sex, adultery is sex with a married person who is not your partner.

To make a perfect act of contrition you must be [i]solely[/i] motivated by the pure love of God. THis is very very hard to do, since most people have mixed motives. A perfect act of contrition forgives mortal sin, but who can trust themselves to know their motive is absolutely pure?

This is one reason we go to confession.

An imperfect act of contrition is motivated by your love of God and your fear of going to hell. Even if you are going to confession soley motivated by your fear of going to hell, that is good enough for the priest to give you absolution, and you are sure your sin is actually forgiven.

[cmotherofpirl]

Phatcatholic I don't think her going to Communion would even be a venial sin, she is not violating any natural law [ an objective offense] but a revealed divine law; she would have no clue of its existance.

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Aug 1 2004, 11:01 PM'] Phatcatholic I don't think her going to Communion would even be a venial sin, she is not violating any natural law [ an objective offense] but a revealed divine law; she would have no clue of its existance. [/quote]
woh, good point. i've never thought about that before. i'm not sure who's right now.

apotheoun??

[Guest JeffCR07]

lol, I'm certainly not as good as Apotheoun, but I think that, with regards to the "is it a sin" question, I know the answer.

I believe that receiving communion in such a scenario, while still a sin in the material sense (that it runs contrary to the objective moral truth, as defined by the Church), would bear with it no culpability and, as such, could not be considered either a venial or mortal sin.

Apotheoun, some backup would be awesome!

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff