Grave Matter

[remnant]

Praised be Jesus Christ!

We know that a mortal sin is:

1. Full knowledge
2. Full Consent
3. Grave Matter

Grave Matter has always been the hardest of the 3 to pin down and define.
While on retreat last weeked we read the Baltimore Cathechism No. 3 which defined Grave Matter as:

1. something that is always evil (abortion, destroying character, etc.)
2. something strickly prohibited

The strickly prohibited is very helpful. For example going to a party is not necessary always evil depending on the party and even if it is a bad party it may not be a grave matter to just go BUT if a parent strickly prohibits going to the party it becomes grave.

What do you guys think? Can people give some concrete examples of grave matter it would be very helpful to me, I teach the Faith and people like examples.

thanks,
in Him, with Him, through Him,

remnant

[StColette]

[url="http://www.catholic.org/frz/examen/examen_mortal.htm"]Mortal Sins ( broken down under each of the Commandments )[/url]

also here is a list from
[url="http://www.catholicdoors.com/faq/qu06.htm"]http://www.catholicdoors.com/faq/qu06.htm[/url]

[quote]Q. Can you provide me with a list of possible mortal sins?
A. Abortion,
    Anger,
    Adulterers,
    Amending the words of the Holy Bible,
    Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, (Eternal sin)
    Carousing,
    Cowards,
    Defrauders,
    Dissensions,
    Disrespect towards parents,
    Drunkenness,
    Enmities,
    Envy,
    Factions,
    Faithless,
    False witness (liars)
    Fornicators,
    Greed,
    Holy Communion received while in a state of mortal sin,
    Idolatry,
    Impurity,
    Jealousy,
    Licentiousness,
    Love and practice falsehoods,
    Male prostitution,
    Murderers,
    Polluted,
    Quarrelling,
    Sodomites,
    Sorcery,
    Strife,
    Thieves (steal/robbers).[/quote]

Hope that helps

God Bless,
Jennie

[Madonna]

I would have to disagree with a lot of those.

Anger: I would think anger acted upon in a way that seriously harms others is mortal. What if I get mad at my mother and slam the door? I don't think that is mortal.

Cowards: I feel really bad for the kid who won't go play dodgeball because he doesn't want to get creamed. He's going to be in confession a lot.

Envy: She has really pretty eyes. Oooh. I wish i had eyes like that. I don't think that cuts me off from God.

Polluting: can someone not receive Communion because they drove a car?

Theives: Stealing someone's pen or a couple of dollars is sinful, but definitely not mortal.


I think it's important not to give a huge list of mortal sins. Many sins depend on circumstances. I'm not advocating relativism, but I think that's why we are judged individually. What was the motive? The circumstance? What is on your heart? Are you aware?

Growing up, I was such a little punk. I was rarely scared if something was a mortal sin or venial sin. The rules didn't keep me from doing things. When I came back into my faith, I cared more about the degree of my sin, not because it was a rule to follow, but because I knew I was being separated from God. Sins are matters of the soul.

I definitely think it is important to have a well formed conscience and be aware when something is a grave matter. I don't know about you, but I definitely know when I'm separated from God. It's not a feeling. It's a difference in my prayer life. I can spiritually sense when I'm in mortal sin or when all of those venial sins are stacking up, and I need to clear the air between God and me.

Edited July 27, 2004 by Madonna

[catholicguy]

Notice the question she quotes: a list of POSSIBLE mortal sins. Few things are ALWAYS mortal sins. For example, failing to pray for a full day is a venial sin. Failing to pray for a full week or a full month is a mortal sin. Feeling anger is not a sin at all in itself. We should use feelings of anger to do good, such as when you are angry that someone is wearing immodest/irreverent clothes to Holy Mass. You should use that anger to speak to them and do good to admonish the sinner. If you use that anger by speaking uncharitably about them, that is a venial sin. If you use that anger and get upset to the point that you murder that person, it is a mortal sin. With almost every venial sin, it is possible taken to its worst state, is a mortal sin. I hope that clears some things up for you. God bless.

Edited July 27, 2004 by catholicguy

[Madonna]

I caught the word "possible" and understood entirely what the list was trying to say. I wanted to list the exceptions to make a point that lots of things could be mortal sins. Those aren't the only possible, and they also possibly [i]aren't[/i], so there wasn't much point in the list.

It's confusing to have a list of possible mortal sins. Kids have come up to me after seeing things like that and been really freaking out. "ok, I hit my brother, was that a mortal sin?!" Full blown panic attack ensues.

I wanted to show that even though it said "possible", I think that list should have come with more of a disclaimer, or not have been made at all.

I think the point is that mortal sin is something that separates you completely from God. Such as abortion or non-marital sex. Those are two that I can think of that don't have any exceptions. (If I am incorrect, someone please put me in my place. )

*edited for crimes against typing.

Edited July 27, 2004 by Madonna

[StColette]

Exactly as Catholicguy said, the list that was provided on that Catholic Q & A was a list of possible mortal sins, because with each of the ones that you seemed to list, Madonna, they could be taken to the extreme and become mortal sins.

[Guest JeffCR07]

Honestly, I dont really think there is actually a debate here. Madonna was (I believe) speaking to the rule of conscience (ie, you can, with a well formed conscience, recognise a mortal sin without the use of a list) while Colette and catholicguy were merely issuing a list of examples that people can use as reference points - especially those who do not as of yet have a well developed conscience, such as little children.

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff

[StColette]

Exactly Jeff

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='StColette' date='Jul 27 2004, 03:13 PM'] [url="http://www.catholic.org/frz/examen/examen_mortal.htm"]Mortal Sins ( broken down under each of the Commandments )[/url]

also here is a list from
[url="http://www.catholicdoors.com/faq/qu06.htm"]http://www.catholicdoors.com/faq/qu06.htm[/url]



Hope that helps

God Bless,
Jennie [/quote]
awesome links! thanks

[Madonna]

Correct. I understood the point you were trying to make catholicguy and colette. I just don't think I was wrong, either.

Quite the little peacemaker, huh Jeff?
Seriously, though, thanks for pointing that out.

[StColette]

No prob. anytime

[Guest JeffCR07]

hahaha, first the hair, then the conflict-resolution, do you know me or something, cuz you really have it out for me?

[XIX]

[quote name='Madonna' date='Jul 27 2004, 03:39 PM'] I caught the word "possible" and understood entirely what the list was trying to say. I wanted to list the exceptions to make a point that lots of things could be mortal sins. Those aren't the only possible, and they also possibly [i]aren't[/i], so there wasn't much point in the list.

It's confusing to have a list of possible mortal sins. Kids have come up to me after seeing things like that and been really freaking out. "ok, I hit my brother, was that a mortal sin?!" Full blown panic attack ensues.

I wanted to show that even though it said "possible", I think that list should have come with more of a disclaimer, or not have been made at all.

I think the point is that mortal sin is something that separates you completely from God. Such as abortion or non-marital sex. Those are two that I can think of that don't have any exceptions. (If I am incorrect, someone please put me in my place. )

*edited for crimes against typing. [/quote]
Just to clarify, they are only mortal sins if you have full consent of will and you know it is wrong.

But I think you knew that already.

My main question is how does somebody get out of mortal sin? Do you have to confess (I know you [i]should[/i] confess regardless) or are you out of mortal sin the moment you repent?

[Guest JeffCR07]

It depends on what you mean by "get out" of mortal sin.

You are correct to note that full knowledge and full consent are necessary in order for the sin to be mortal.

A true act of contrition (truly repenting of your sins and asking God's forgiveness) will forgive you of the sin itself. However, a corporal penance is still necessary in order to atone for the damage caused by by the sin to the persons involved and society in general (sin is not merely a personal thing, but affects everyone). Thus full absolution does not come, technically, until after your penance is completed. In the case of a person who makes a sincere act of contrition before he or she dies, but does not have the chance to make an act of penance, that penance is "done" in the form of purgatory.

Being reconciled with God and returning to communion with Him can be thought of as having 2 steps. The first is acknowledging the sin and begging forgiveness. The second is doing an act of penance, in order to help right the wrong that resulted from the sin. When both of these steps have been made, I would consider a person to have "gotten out" of mortal sin.

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff

[phatcatholic]

also, note that forgiveness of mortal sin can only be obtained through the sacrament of reconciliation. praying to God for His forgiveness outside of the sacrament forgives venial sin--and mortal sin, but only if there is a dire reason why the sacrament can't be received and only under the condition that the sacrament be received as soon as that obstacle is no longer present.

dire reason or not, forgiveness of mortal sin is always linked to the sacrament of reconciliation.

also, through prayer to God regarding venial sin or partaking of the sacrament regarding mortal sin, forgiveness is received rather you do the penance or not. however, the effects of sin on the body of Christ cannot be undone until the penance is performed.

from the catechism:
[b]1451 [/b]Among the penitent's acts contrition occupies first place. Contrition is "sorrow of the soul and detestation for the sin committed, together with the resolution not to sin again."50

[b]1452 [/b]When it arises from a love by which God is loved above all else, contrition is called "perfect" (contrition of charity). Such contrition remits venial sins; it also obtains forgiveness of mortal sins if it includes the firm resolution to have recourse to sacramental confession as soon as possible.51

[b]1453 [/b]The contrition called "imperfect" (or "attrition") is also a gift of God, a prompting of the Holy Spirit. It is born of the consideration of sin's ugliness or the fear of eternal damnation and the other penalties threatening the sinner (contrition of fear). Such a stirring of conscience can initiate an interior process which, under the prompting of grace, will be brought to completion by sacramental absolution. By itself however, imperfect contrition cannot obtain the forgiveness of grave sins, but it disposes one to obtain forgiveness in the sacrament of Penance.52

[b]1456 [/b]Confession to a priest is an essential part of the sacrament of Penance: "All mortal sins of which penitents after a diligent self-examination are conscious must be recounted by them in confession, even if they are most secret and have been committed against the last two precepts of the Decalogue; for these sins sometimes wound the soul more grievously and are more dangerous than those which are committed openly."54

When Christ's faithful strive to confess all the sins that they can remember, they undoubtedly place all of them before the divine mercy for pardon. But those who fail to do so and knowingly withhold some, place nothing before the divine goodness for remission through the mediation of the priest, "for if the sick person is too ashamed to show his wound to the doctor, the medicine cannot heal what it does not know."55

[b]1459 [/b]Many sins wrong our neighbor. One must do what is possible in order to repair the harm (e.g., return stolen goods, restore the reputation of someone slandered, pay compensation for injuries). Simple justice requires as much. But sin also injures and weakens the sinner himself, as well as his relationships with God and neighbor. Absolution takes away sin, but it does not remedy all the disorders sin has caused.62 Raised up from sin, the sinner must still recover his full spiritual health by doing something more to make amends for the sin: he must "make satisfaction for" or "expiate" his sins. This satisfaction is also called "penance."

[b]1856 [/b]Mortal sin, by attacking the vital principle within us - that is, charity - necessitates a new initiative of God's mercy and a conversion of heart which is normally accomplished within the setting of the sacrament of reconciliation:

[b]1861 [/b]Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God's forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ's kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.

[b]1863 [/b]Venial sin weakens charity; it manifests a disordered affection for created goods; it impedes the soul's progress in the exercise of the virtues and the practice of the moral good; it merits temporal punishment. Deliberate and unrepented venial sin disposes us little by little to commit mortal sin. However venial sin does not break the covenant with God. With God's grace it is humanly reparable. "Venial sin does not deprive the sinner of sanctifying grace, friendship with God, charity, and consequently eternal happiness."134


pax christi,
phatcatholic

Edited July 29, 2004 by phatcatholic