High Christology Vs. Low Christology.

[Madonna]

I have talked to people before who are very low christology. They believe that is it possible that Jesus did not know he was God until He was baptised, possibly not even until He was in the cross.

Wouldn't Jesus have had to known He was God from the beginning. Jesus is God, God is omniscient. Therefore, He would have to know He was God to be omniscient. Plus, even as a child, He was "about his Father's business" in the temple.

This person (a theology teacher, mind you ) and I would argue after class all of the time. I even brought my Summa of the Summa to school. And maybe a kid carrying around a Summa just freaked her out a bit. I don't know. But she just insisted that she was low christology, and I was high christology, and that neither of us were wrong.

I think the former belief is incorrect though. Anyone have any help on this one? This was years ago, so I can't refute her, but at least I'll know for next time.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

I don't know anything about "high" or "low" Christology. I think it is a matter of emphasizing either His humanity or His divinity. I do know however, that saying Christ didn't know he was God from His birth is an error:
[quote][b]Pope Pius XII, Encyclical "[i]MYSTICI CORPORIS CHRISTI[/i]" ("On the Mystical Body of Christ"), 1943:[/b]
For hardly was He conceived in the womb of the Mother of God, when He began to enjoy the beatific vision, and in that vision all the members of His Mystical Body were continually and unceasingly present to Him, and He embraced them with His redeeming love.[/quote]
And this article covers it more in depth:
[url="http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/incaa3.htm"]http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/incaa3.htm[/url]

[cmotherofpirl]

It is Catholic dogma that Jesus always knew exactly who He was and what He came to do. Anything else is heresy.

[Madonna]

I know. A teacher isn't likely to take that from a student though. Do you have a source? She just thought we had a "difference of opinion." I think she just thought I was a cute little Catholic kid trying to get into my faith who didn't know what she was talking about.

[phatcatholic]

here are the relevant paragraphs from the article "thedude" provided:[list]
[*][b]3. Did Jesus Know He was God?[/b]

A belief which is occasionally challenged, even today, is that Jesus knew that He was God. Some argue that Jesus grew in the knowledge that He was God, but was not born knowing this. As can be seen from the argument above about Jesus being truly and fully God from His conception, since Jesus was truly God knowing all things, He must have been born knowing all things, including that He is God. If He were born not knowing this, then He could not be God.

The only real objection to this belief is based on the human idea that a baby is born knowing virtually nothing. How, people ask, could Jesus be a baby and yet know that He is God? The answer is that it is just as easy for God to be a baby as it is for Him to be an adult man. In each case, the infinite God takes on a limited, weak human nature at the same time that He is infinite God.

Pope Pius XII taught, in his Encyclical Mystici Corporis ("The Mystical Body" - 1943): "By means of the Beatific Vision (the sight of God in Heaven), which He enjoyed from the time when he was received into the womb of the Mother of God, He has for ever and continuously had present to Him all the members of His mystical Body, and embraced them with His saving love." (N.D. 661).

In other words Jesus possessed, in His human soul, the same immediate vision of God which all the saints and angels in heaven have. This means that Jesus was, at the same time, both a pilgrim on earth like us and a possessor of the immediate vision of God. Even His human nature is endowed with an abundance of supernatural gifts. He knows all things - past, present and future.

Jesus, throughout the Gospels, claimed to be the Son of God. When He spoke of His relation to God He said "My Father" (Matthew 25:34 and 26:29; Luke 2:49 and 24:49; John 20:17.) When He spoke of the disciples' relation to God, He said "Your Father". Even when teaching the "Our Father", He told the disciples how they were to pray to the Father (Matthew 6:9).

Jesus knew that He was sublime over all creatures, men and angels.

He transcends the Prophets and Kings of the Old Testament (Matthew 12:41).

The angels are His servants. They appear and minister to Him (Matthew 4:11, Mark 1:13).

In Matthew 23:34 and Luke 11:49, He asserts of Himself what in the Old Testament is said of Yahweh, making Himself equal to God.

He describes Himself as the "Lord of the Sabbath" (Matthew 12:8, Mark 2:28, Luke 6:5)

There can be no doubt, from a reading of the gospels and study of the Church's interpretation of these passages. Jesus clearly claims to be God.

[b]4. Jesus claims to be God:[/b]

Mt16:13ff "Who do, people say I am?....Who do you say I am? Blessed are you....."

Mt 26:63ff " Caiaphas: "I adjure you by the Living God that you tell us if you are the Christ the Son of God. Jesus said: Thou hast said it.... and you shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of the power of God."

Jn 19:7 The Jews said: "He ought to die because He made himself the Son of God."

Lk 10:22 He claimed equality with God. "All things are given to me by my father; no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom He chooses to reveal Him."

Mt 25:31 He claimed to sit in judgement on all mankind. "The son of Man will come in His majesty and all the angels with Him ... and all the nations shall be gathered together before Him, and He shall separate them one from another."

Mt 5:22 "You have heard it said ... but now I say to you."

Jn. 10:30-33 "I and the Father are one" The Jews were about to stone Him because "being a Man He made Himself God."

Jn 5:17-21 "He said God was His Father, making himself equal to God."

Jn 5:18 to Nicodemus. "He who does not believe, believes not in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
[/list]another article, [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08675a.htm"][b]The Knowledge of Christ[/b][/url], is monumentally helpful as well. together, these two articles should give you the proof that you need.

pax christi,
phatcatholic

Edited July 27, 2004 by phatcatholic

[Madonna]

Thank you. I read that article earlier. I should have made myself more clear. I was looking for specific references, like from the CCC, where it says this is what the Church believes to show that Catholics do not have an "option" of the two.

My teacher almost seemed to have been getting into some of the early heresies. Which was strange, because that was the Church history class in which I learned about heresies. Low christology seems to lean towards Arianism.

Those Bible verses are great, thank you.




*Edited because I'm...silly.

Edited July 27, 2004 by Madonna

[p0lar_bear]

You are not going to find something that says "You cannot have a low Christology" because it's not an offical title. What you will find are statements contradicting what your teacher apparenly places int he category of "low Christology."

[phatcatholic]

from the catechism:

[b]Christ's soul and his human knowledge [/b]

[b]471 [/b]Apollinarius of Laodicaea asserted that in Christ the divine Word had replaced the soul or spirit. Against this error the Church confessed that the eternal Son also assumed a rational, human soul.100

[b]472 [/b]This human soul that the Son of God assumed is endowed with a true human knowledge. As such, this knowledge could not in itself be unlimited: it was exercised in the historical conditions of his existence in space and time. This is why the Son of God could, when he became man, "increase in wisdom and in stature, and in favor with God and man",101 and would even have to inquire for himself about what one in the human condition can learn only from experience.102 This corresponded to the reality of his voluntary emptying of himself, taking "the form of a slave".103

[b]473 [/b]But at the same time, this truly human knowledge of God's Son expressed the divine life of his person.104 "The human nature of God's Son, not by itself but by its union with the Word, knew and showed forth in itself everything that pertains to God."105 Such is first of all the case with the intimate and immediate knowledge that the Son of God made man has of his Father.106 The Son in his human knowledge also showed the divine penetration he had into the secret thoughts of human hearts.107

[b]474 [/b]By its union to the divine wisdom in the person of the Word incarnate, Christ enjoyed in his human knowledge the fullness of understanding of the eternal plans he had come to reveal.108 What he admitted to not knowing in this area, he elsewhere declared himself not sent to reveal.109


sources:
100 Cf. Damasus 1: DS 149.
101 Lk 2:52.
102 Cf. Mk 6 38; 8 27; Jn 11:34; etc.
103 Phil 2:7.
104 Cf. St. Gregory the Great, "Sicut aqua" ad Eulogium, Epist. Lib. 10, 39 PL 77, 1097A ff.; DS 475.
105 St. Maximus the Confessor, Qu. et dub. 66: PG 90, 840A.
106 Cf. Mk 14:36; Mt 11:27; Jn 1:18; 8:55; etc.
107 Cf. Mk 2:8; Jn 2 25; 6:61; etc.
108 Cf. Mk 8:31; 9:31; 10:33-34; 14:18-20, 26-30.
109 Cf. Mk 13:32, Acts 1:7.


i hope this helps........pax christi,
phatcatholic

Edited July 27, 2004 by phatcatholic

[Madonna]

[quote]You are not going to find something that says "You cannot have a low Christology" because it's not an offical title. What you will find are statements contradicting what your teacher apparenly places int he category of "low Christology."[/quote]

I understand. I never said I was looking for it to be titled that way....


Thank you, phatcatholic. Now I have a source to pull if I ever have that conversation with someone again. Especially that last paragraph.

[Guest JeffCR07]

cool stuff, I believe that St. Gregory the Great did some work on explaining the knowledge of Christ as well!

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

More:
[url="http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/incaa2.htm"]http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/incaa2.htm[/url]