I'm Back

[mulls]

What up people!


I'm out here in Wildwood, New Jersey on a summer project with Campus Crusade for Christ. While out here, our group actively shares our faith by going out to a very busy boardwalk and asking people questions about what they believe in, and transitioning to the Gospel.

To make a long story short, there are A LOT of catholics out here who have no clue about anything, as many of you know. We've been talking to them everyday, and being a former catholic myself, a lot of people in my group have been asking me about catholicism. So I thought I might as well bring them to the main source, just like I did.


So on the behalf of my friends Adam, James, and Byron, I'll ask a few questions (most of which I know the answers to, but this is for their sake, not mine). But anyways, it's good to be back for a moment, since we don't have much free time.

Here we go:



How is a person saved?

and

What is the basis for transubstantiation? How does it figure into salvation?

[Dave]

[quote name='mulls' date='Jul 26 2004, 11:53 PM'] How is a person saved? [/quote]
Hey Sean!

I'm gonna do 2 posts -- one on one question and one on the other.

Catholics believe you can get to heaven through faith in Jesus Christ, by the grace of God the Father, through the work of the Holy Spirit.

They believe it is only through Jesus Christ that we can ever get to heaven.

Catholics believe salvation means becoming adopted children of God through rebirth in the sacrament of baptism. And then we have to live our faith by doing God's will and avoiding sin. And we have to persevere in it.

[Dave]

[quote name='mulls' date='Jul 26 2004, 11:53 PM'] What is the basis for transubstantiation? How does it figure into salvation? [/quote]
The basis for transubstantiation is the Bible and Sacred Tradition. Not once does Jesus say "This symbolizes My Body;" He always says, "This IS My Body." And John Chapter 6, Jesus says He is the Bread of Life and that we must eat His Body and drink His Blood or else we have no life within us. As a result a lot of Jesus' disciples got upset and left -- Jews are against drinking blood, and so His statements offended them. Notice that Jesus never called them back to say, "Hey, I was just speaking figuratively!" Also, in that language to symbolically eat one's body or drink one's blood meant "to slander and betray." Of course, it would be absurd to think that Jesus was saying that we have to slander and betray Him to obtain eternal life. In addition, the word Jesus uses for "eat" means literally "gnaw" -- not the language of symbolism.

As for those who would claim that Jesus meant that we eat His Body by coming to Him and drink His Blood by believing in Him, consider that the people who left were Jesus' DISCIPLES. They had ALREADY accepted Jesus and all he had taught them up until that point. They had already come to Him and believed up until that point. Then after they leave, Jesus turns to the 12 and asks if they want to leave too. Peter answers, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of everlasting life." The 12 already believed in Jesus up until that point, and yet Peter makes a statement that suggests that they might have left. They didn't understand about eating Jesus' Body and drinking His Blood, but they still believed in Him, and so all they could do was trust that Jesus was leading them in the right direction.

So as for what transubstantiation has to do with our salvation, Jesus told us that unless we ate His Body and drank His Blood we had no life within us. We receive innumerable graces from Holy Communion -- graces to strengthen us in following the Lord and drawing closer to Him. And if we remain close to the Lord and stay close, we will be saved.

Now let's talk about the Passover. It was the most important and sacred event in the Old Testament. It was the day in which the Lord delivered his people from the bondage of Pharaoh. The Lord told the people to take a lamb without blemish (Exodus 12:5), slaughter it (Exodus 12:6), and apply the lamb’s blood to the doorposts and lintel of the house (Exodus 12:7). That night the Lord sent "the destroyer" through Egypt killing every firstborn son. T he houses with the lamb’s blood were passedover, and their firstborn sons were saved. Jesus was foreshadowed as the Passover lamb described in Exodus. In Exodus 12:46, the lamb was not to have any of its bones broken. T his is related to Jesus because during his crucifixion, his bones were not broken (John 19:33). John 19:36 says, "For this happened so that the scripture passage might be fulfilled: 'Not a bone of it will be broken.'" John’s gospel also states that it was "about the sixth hour" when Jesus was ordered to be crucified. This corresponds to the "sixth hour" that the Old Testament priests were to begin slaughtering the lambs for the Passover meal. Furthermore, John 19:23-24 describes Jesus being stripped of a seamless linen tunic, which is the same garment used by the High Priest in the Old Testament while sacrificing the Passover lamb. Now at this point all that has been established is that Jesus is the new unblemished lamb and through his blood (similar to the lamb’s blood during the Passover) people are saved. In the Old Covenant it was the blood of an animal. In the New Covenant it is the blood of God in human form. Of course, Christians are saved through the blood of Jesus, like the people in Exodus were saved through the blood of the lamb. However, there's another important parallel --you had to eat the lamb! In Exodus, all who participated in the Passover were required to eat the flesh of the lamb. This is clear in Exodus 12:8, "That same night they shall eat its roasted flesh with unleavened bread and bitter herbs." This was a specific command of God. If you simply applied the blood to the doorposts and went to sleep without eating the lamb, you would have disobeyed God’s command. When you woke up the next morning, your first born son would be dead. You had to eat the lamb! Remember, the Passover was not just the slaughtering of a lamb, but it was also a meal. This meal continued throughout history until it was fulfilled with the real, unblemished lamb, Jesus Christ. In the New Covenant Jesus fulfills this command during the Last Supper by distributing His Body and Blood under the forms of bread and wine. It is no coincidence that the Last Supper occurred on the night before the Passover. Jesus designed it that way. He is the Passover lamb! During the Last Supper, the apostles celebrated the Passover meal by sharing the sacrificial victim (Jesus). Notice how this is in perfect harmony with John 6 when Jesus says that you must eat His Flesh and drink His Blood. It should also be noted that the events in John Chapter 6 took place near the Jewish Passover feast (see John 6:4). Coincidence? No, by design! Therefore, when Catholics take Communion they are eating the Body of Christ (the new covenant lamb) in the bread. The bread and wine are sacramentally changed to the Body and Blood of Jesus by the grace of God.

[curtins]

wow dave thats a big post that i didnt read and couldnt have done myself

[Archbishop 10-K]

1. Catholics believe in Grace Alone. Someone else will explain this for you, better than I can.

2. The Jews of the New Testament, just like people today, had a problem with transubstantiation. "‘I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh.’ The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, ‘How can this man give us his flesh to eat?’" John 6:51–52

"Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is REAL food and my blood is REAL drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him." John 6:53–56

Shocking? Jesus' disciples thought so. Continuing, "On hearing it, many of his disciples said, "This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?"
Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, "Does this offend you?" John 6:60-61

John 6:66 says, "From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him."

St. Paul re-iterates this: "The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?" 1 Cor. 10:16


Did the early Christians believe in transubstantiation? They sure did (props to Catholic Answers for the quotes).

Ignatius of Antioch in 110 A.D., "They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in his goodness, raised up again."

Justin Martyr, 150 A.D., "Not as common bread or common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nourished, . . . is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus."

Cyril of Jerusalem, 300 A.D., "Do not, therefore, regard the bread and wine as simply that, for they are, according to the Master’s declaration, the body and blood of Christ. Even though the senses suggest to you the other, let faith make you firm. Do not judge in this matter by taste, but be fully assured by faith, not doubting that you have been deemed worthy of the body and blood of Christ."


So, my interpretation is not really of my own. I'm going by what the early Church believed.

[catholicguy]

I think the posts on transubstantiation were sufficient, but the reply concerning salvation seemed to have some omissions. The answer to the question: "How is a person saved" comes in the form of a lifelong answer. In order to be saved, one must partake of the Sacrament of Baptism, being made a member of God's family and taken from snares of the devil. Next, the baptized must hold the Catholic Faith, "that Faith without which it is impossible to please God" (Session V, Council of Trent). After holding the Catholic Faith, he must persevere in God's grace and guard his soul from mortal sin. If he commits a mortal sin, he must go to Confession and be absolved from this sin. He must die in a state of grace, adhering to the Catholic Faith "Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly." (Athanasian Creed). In whole, one must be baptized, hold the Catholic Faith, persevere in the required works, e.g., adherence to the Ten Commandments and the Precepts of the Church, and must die in the state of grace. This is the way one is saved. As was stated earlier, salvation is through Our Lord Jesus Christ and His Church, as He Himself has ordained when He said "He that is not with me, is against me: and he that gathereth not with me, scattereth.” (Matt.12:30), and again to His Apostles "He that heareth you, heareth me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth me; and he that despiseth me, despiseth him that sent me." (Luke 10:16). God bless.

Edited July 27, 2004 by catholicguy

[Quietfire]

Yes, agreed.
We have been justified.
Our salvation is ongoing.

Peace.

[jasJis]

mulls,
With Catholic (read Right and Universal) theology, it's all about Grace. Asking for it, receiving it, participating with it, being a channel for it, being given more than we know to ask for, it being granted in different ways and means and God sees fit, etc.

Catholics don't have to know all about how and why, that's why we can remain dumb about some things unless we feel moved to ask why. The Protestant flaw (in my opinion) is believing only what can be understood is needed, and needing to understand what is needed. The 'Fullness of Truth' is not what can be comprehended by a single mind accross a given mass of people. That's Fundamentalism and minimalizes God. The 'Fullness of Truth' teaches that each of us is given the opportunities to accept at least the minimal amount of Grace needed for salvation, and usually are offered an abundant surplus of Grace.

The Eucharist and Transubstantian is human terms that attempt to describe and communicate the Abundant Grace that God gave and gives us from the moment Jesus took the bread and said 'This is my body. Do this in remembrance of me.' It's God giving us unmerited Grace. Transubstantiation is merely a scientific term to explain the physics of matter we observe, and tie it with the matter of Grace which has been revealed by the Trinity of God.

[mulls]

[quote name='catholicguy' date='Jul 27 2004, 05:16 PM'] In whole, one must be baptized, hold the Catholic Faith, persevere in the required works, e.g., adherence to the Ten Commandments and the Precepts of the Church, and must die in the state of grace. This is the way one is saved. [/quote]
well, i definately can't keep the ten commandments on my own. i can try, but i'll always fall short.

too much works stuff for me....God knew this, which is why the blood of Christ saves.

and i'll die under the blood just like i live under the blood now. same with God's grace....i'll never, on my own, be in "a state of grace"... it's God's grace.

[Aloysius]

And behold one came and said to him: Good master, what good shall I do that I may have life everlasting? Who said to him: Why askest thou me concerning good? One is good, God. But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He said to him: Which? And Jesus said: Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness. Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

[i]St Matthew 19:16-22[/i]

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='mulls' date='Aug 5 2004, 01:36 AM'] well, i definately can't keep the ten commandments on my own. i can try, but i'll always fall short.

too much works stuff for me....God knew this, which is why the blood of Christ saves.

and i'll die under the blood just like i live under the blood now. same with God's grace....i'll never, on my own, be in "a state of grace"... it's God's grace. [/quote]
The ten commandments are easy, its that "Go thou and be perfect "one that gets ya.

Remember if you don't have works, your faith is imaginary.

[CatholicAndFanatical]

[quote]
and i'll die under the blood just like i live under the blood now. same with God's grace....i'll never, on my own, be in "a state of grace"... it's God's grace.
[/quote]

Mulls,

You are correct that never on your own will you be in a state of grace, however, since God is a merciful God He has given us Sacrament of Reconciliation so that when we do fall we can always go back to Him if we have a repentent heart. But to say with confidence that one will die under the blood of Christ and somehow be saved automatically is a Sin of Assumption (uh..I think thats right..kids are distracting me). No one can assume they are 'saved' and will go to Heaven. Especially if that person has never recieved Christs TRUE Body and Blood, especially if that person has never been to Confession and recieved Absolution. Even the honest man sins 7 times a day, we all fall short in our race to Heaven, but God has given us a way to remain in His graces, through the Holy Eucharist and through Confession.

God Bless

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote]And behold one came and said to him: Good master, what good shall I do that I may have life everlasting? Who said to him: Why askest thou me concerning good? One is good, God. But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He said to him: Which? And Jesus said: Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness. Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. [/quote]

This man asks an important question. He felt that he still lacked something, and came to Jesus for assurance and direction.

Knowing the man’s heart, Jesus’ purpose is to make him realize his inordinate trust in riches and love for money, and therefore his lack of trust in God.

Jesus underlines the truth that only God is good, and by implication that all people, including the most religious, are not good.

Then Jesus tells lists several commandments in the second table of the Law. One of the purposes of the Law is to teach us the way to eternal life: “Therefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith” (Galatians 3:24). Not least because the Law serves as a mirror that reveals our sinfulness, and therefore we feel the need for a Saviour. “For by the law is the knowledge of sin” (Romans 3:20).

To this, the young man naively answers: “All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?” Did he really keep the commandments impeccably? The best answer a believer can give would be, “Yes, Lord, by your grace I keep the commandments. Yet not perfectly. Constantly I need your mercy because I often sin!” This man thought he kept all the commandments always. Undoubtedly, he was outwardly a very moral man and strict in his religion, just as Saul was before his conversion: “touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.” His moral pride was blinding him to the reality of his sinful and greedy heart. Clearly, Jesus had to put his finger straight on the wound, and without directly mentioning them, Jesus applies the first and last of the Ten Commandments: “Thou shalt have no other gods before me… Thou shalt not covet.”

“Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.”

Why did Jesus ask him to do something that He does usually require of all his followers? Undoubtedly, Jesus set before him the ultimate choice between serving one master or another to expose the condition of his heart. “No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon” (Matthew 6:24). This man's god was mammon; his heart was covetous. Would he continue to trust in his many possessions and riches; or would he forsake his idol and follow the Lord? Sadly, this young man persisted in the wrong way, went away back to his possessions and left Him who is the Life that he desired. How tragic!

What may we conclude? The Lord himself explains the significance of this story. First of all, He reveals our sinful tendency to trust in riches rather than God. “Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God! It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.” This problem is not limited to the rich, for poor people can be equally covetous. Understanding this sinful tendency in all people, the apostles exclaim: “Who then can be saved?” To this, Jesus makes a statement that applies to all of us: “With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.” Sinful man cannot attain salvation by their works. Salvation is the work of the omnipotent God. It is ironic that some wrest the words of Jesus “if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments” and come to the very opposite conclusion, supposing that they can merit eternal life by the works of the Law.

Secondly, Jesus offers great comfort and hope to His true disciples. They believe in Him, and what was previously impossible becomes real. Why? Because God does the impossible and changes their heart. The apostles were a case in point. They had left everything and followed Him, and Jesus promises them and all who follow Him, great rewards and eternal life.

Is there evidence that the camel has, by the power of God, passed through the eye of the needle? Do you love God more than money and the things of this world? Are you following the Lord Jesus?

Or perhaps, not knowing the grace of God, is the camel still struggling to pass through the tiny hole? The law, and your imperfect outward obedience to it, cannot achieve what God alone can do.