All Roads Lead To Rome

[Luke2219]

Reiterated: I believe that all roads lead to Rome. If all religions are aimed toward Heaven--or atleast a higher spiritual level after death--than that's where you'll end up if you follow your religion faithfully. I believe that if you follow a religion that is full of love and doing the right thing, you're spreading Jesus' message. Remember, Jesus preached love and forgiveness. How can you say that those who don't know Jesus aren't saved? That makes Heaven sound too exclusive. And who's to say that those who didn't believe in Jesus on earth won't be able to get to know Him before getting into Heaven?

Above all, love.

-Mark

geetarplayer, Everything that the others said is true and I'm glad you understand it. I do want to point out that I think you are on to something about all roads leading to Rome. If through your religion you are honestly seeking the Truth with the desire to know God and to do His will, then it will lead you to the Catholic Church. The question remains as the others have pointed out, will you make it before it's too late? I maintain that it doesn't matter where you find God as long as once you find Him, your journey leads you into the Catholic faith.

[Robyn]

I'll quote myself here...maybe this is the better topic.

How do we receive Salvation?

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned and fall short of God’s glory

Jeremiah 33:3 'Call to me and I will answer you. I'll tell you marvelous and wondrous things that you could never figure out on your own.' (The Message Bible)

Matthew 7:7 "Ask, and you will receive; seek, and you will find; knock, and the door will be opened to you. (GNB)

John 14:6 Jesus answered him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life; no one goes to the Father except by me. (GNB)

This verse DOES NOT state the Catholic church is the way

This verse DOES NOT state the Protestant church is the way

However it DOES state “I” AM THE WAY. = Jesus is the way.

Denomination is not stated as necessary.

Therefore, as it seems we ALL have stated belief that God is the final judge, and the bible doesn’t state WHICH denomination is best…do you think God would refuse us because of our denomination?

1 Samuel 16:7. Man looks at the outward appearance, but God looks at the heart.

Proverbs 8:17 I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me. (KJV)

Jeremiah 29:13 You will seek me, and you will find me because you will seek me with all your heart. (GNB)

"When you come looking for me, you'll find me. Yes, when you get serious about finding me and want it more than anything else, (MSG)

Isaiah 65:24. And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.

[Jake Huether]

It is very difficult to keep the Commandments without the sacraments.

Shoot! It's hard as heck to keep the Commandments even with the Sacraments! If I didn't have them... Whew. Let's just say, thank God I have them.

[cmotherofpirl]

I'll quote myself here...maybe this is the better topic.

How do we receive Salvation?

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned and fall short of God’s glory

Jeremiah 33:3 'Call to me and I will answer you. I'll tell you marvelous and wondrous things that you could never figure out on your own.' (The Message Bible)

Matthew 7:7 "Ask, and you will receive; seek, and you will find; knock, and the door will be opened to you. (GNB)

John 14:6 Jesus answered him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life; no one goes to the Father except by me. (GNB)

This verse DOES NOT state the Catholic church is the way

This verse DOES NOT state the Protestant church is the way

However it DOES state “I” AM THE WAY. = Jesus is the way.

Denomination is not stated as necessary.

Therefore, as it seems we ALL have stated belief that God is the final judge, and the bible doesn’t state WHICH denomination is best…do you think God would refuse us because of our denomination?

1 Samuel 16:7. Man looks at the outward appearance, but God looks at the heart.

Proverbs 8:17 I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me. (KJV)

Jeremiah 29:13 You will seek me, and you will find me because you will seek me with all your heart. (GNB)

"When you come looking for me, you'll find me. Yes, when you get serious about finding me and want it more than anything else, (MSG)

Isaiah 65:24. And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.

Since the CAtholic Church was the only Church in existance when it asssembled the New Testament, it would be silly to think demoninations would be in there.

You keep forgetting to mention the necessity of baptism for salvation.

[Chucho]

do you think God would refuse us because of our denomination?

Robyn, Marielapin said:

"There is no salvation anywhere but FROM the Catholic Church. Meaning, people from other religions CAN be saved, but they are saved BECAUSE of the Catholic Church, and the graces God has given it"

This also regards other denominations as well.

[jasJis]

I maintain that it doesn't matter where you find God as long as once you find Him, your journey leads you into the Catholic faith.

Luke2219,

If you find God, it is because of the Catholic Church and you are a member of the Catholic Church, though probably in an imperfect way.

That Membership is good enough up to the point that one is rejecting God as He is understood. By Grace, we can hope all work to become more closer bound to the Catholic Church, because by definition, the Universal Church is the Body of Christ and is temporally (physical, not temporary) represented as the institution of the Catholic Church.

CATECHISM:

818: "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church." 819: "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth" are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements." Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."

Edited September 8, 2003 by jasJis

[ironmonk]

Mankind knows of Salvation because of the Catholic Church... if it was not for the Catholic Church the gospels would have never made it to all the ends of the Earth.

The father of protestantism even said so....

"We are compelled to concede to the Papists that they have the Word of God, that we received it from them, and that without them we should have no knowledge of it at all."

~ Martin Luther, Commentary on St. John

What the Church teaches...

http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sec...t2chpt2art2.htm

432

The name "Jesus" signifies that the very name of God is present in the person of his Son, made man for the universal and definitive redemption from sins. It is the divine name that alone brings salvation, and henceforth all can invoke his name, for Jesus united himself to all men through his Incarnation,23 so that "there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."24

435

The name of Jesus is at the heart of Christian prayer. All liturgical prayers conclude with the words "through our Lord Jesus Christ." The Hail Mary reaches its high point in the words "blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus." The Eastern prayer of the heart, the Jesus Prayer, says: "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner." Many Christians, such as St. Joan of Arc, have died with the one word "Jesus" on their lips.

http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sec...chpt3art9p3.htm

Who belongs to the Catholic Church?

836

"All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God. . . . And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God's grace to salvation."320

837

"Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who—by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion—are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains inDouche in the bosom of the Church, but ‘in body' not ‘in heart.'"321

838

"The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist."324

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846

How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847

This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848

"Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

IV. The Church Is Apostolic

857

The Church is apostolic because she is founded on the apostles, in three ways:

she was and remains built on "the foundation of the Apostles,"362 the witnesses chosen and sent on mission by Christ himself;363

with the help of the Spirit dwelling in her, the Church keeps and hands on the teaching,364 the "good deposit," the salutary words she has heard from the apostles;365

she continues to be taught, sanctified, and guided by the apostles until Christ's return, through their successors in pastoral office: the college of bishops, "assisted by priests, in union with the successor of Peter, the Church's supreme pastor":366

You are the eternal Shepherd

who never leaves his flock untended.

Through the apostles

you watch over us and protect us always.

You made them shepherds of the flock

to share in the work of your Son. . . .367

The Apostles' mission

858

Jesus is the Father's Emissary. From the beginning of his ministry, he "called to him those whom he desired; . . . . And he appointed twelve, whom also he named apostles, to be with him, and to be sent out to preach."368 From then on, they would also be his "emissaries" (Greek apostoloi). In them, Christ continues his own mission: "As the Father has sent me, even so I send you."369 The apostles' ministry is the continuation of his mission; Jesus said to the Twelve: "he who receives you receives me."370

859

Jesus unites them to the mission he received from the Father. As "the Son can do nothing of his own accord," but receives everything from the Father who sent him, so those whom Jesus sends can do nothing apart from him,371 from whom they received both the mandate for their mission and the power to carry it out. Christ's apostles knew that they were called by God as "ministers of a new covenant," "servants of God," "ambassadors for Christ," "servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God."372

860

In the office of the apostles there is one aspect that cannot be transmitted: to be the chosen witnesses of the Lord's Resurrection and so the foundation stones of the Church. But their office also has a permanent aspect. Christ promised to remain with them always. The divine mission entrusted by Jesus to them "will continue to the end of time, since the Gospel they handed on is the lasting source of all life for the Church. Therefore, . . . the apostles took care to appoint successors."373

The bishops—successors of the apostles

861

"In order that the mission entrusted to them might be continued after their death, [the apostles] consigned, by will and testament, as it were, to their immediate collaborators the duty of completing and consolidating the work they had begun, urging them to tend to the whole flock, in which the Holy Spirit had appointed them to shepherd the Church of God. They accordingly designated such men and then made the ruling that likewise on their death other proven men should take over their ministry."374

862

"Just as the office which the Lord confided to Peter alone, as first of the apostles, destined to be transmitted to his successors, is a permanent one, so also endures the office, which the apostles received, of shepherding the Church, a charge destined to be exercised without interruption by the sacred order of bishops."375 Hence the Church teaches that "the bishops have by divine institution taken the place of the apostles as pastors of the Church, in such wise that whoever listens to them is listening to Christ and whoever despises them despises Christ and him who sent Christ."376

The apostolate

863

The whole Church is apostolic, in that she remains, through the successors of St. Peter and the other apostles, in communion of faith and life with her origin: and in that she is "sent out" into the whole world. All members of the Church share in this mission, though in various ways. "The Christian vocation is, of its nature, a vocation to the apostolate as well." inDouche, we call an apostolate "every activity of the Mystical Body" that aims "to spread the Kingdom of Christ over all the earth."377

http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt2sect2.htm

1257

The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.60 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.61 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.62 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

St. John 3:5

Jesus answered, "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit."

St. Mark 16:16

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned.

What the first Christians who are Catholic had to say about it...

Ignatius of Antioch - Pupil of St. John.

"Be not deceived, my brethren: If anyone follows a maker of schism [i.e., is a schismatic], he does not inherit the kingdom of God; if anyone walks in strange doctrine [i.e., is a heretic], he has no part in the passion [of Christ]. Take care, then, to use one Eucharist, so that whatever you do, you do according to God: For there is one flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup in the union of his blood; one altar, as there is one bishop, with the presbytery and my fellow servants, the deacons" (Letter to the Philadelphians 3:3–4:1 [A.D. 110]).

Justin Martyr

"We have been taught that Christ is the first-begotten of God, and we have declared him to be the Logos of which all mankind partakes [John 1:9]. Those, therefore, who lived according to reason [Greek, logos] were really Christians, even though they were thought to be atheists, such as, among the Greeks, Socrates, Heraclitus, and others like them. . . . Those who lived before Christ but did not live according to reason [logos] were wicked men, and enemies of Christ, and murderers of those who did live according to reason [logos], whereas those who lived then or who live now according to reason [logos] are Christians. Such as these can be confident and unafraid" (First Apology 46 [A.D. 151]).

Irenaeus

"In the Church God has placed apostles, prophets, teachers, and every other working of the Spirit, of whom none of those are sharers who do not conform to the Church, but who defraud themselves of life by an evil mind and even worse way of acting. Where the Church is, there is the Spirit of God; where the Spirit of God is, there is the Church and all grace" (Against Heresies 3:24:1 [A.D. 189]).

"[The spiritual man] shall also judge those who give rise to schisms, who are destitute of the love of God, and who look to their own special advantage rather than to the unity of the Church; and who for trifling reasons, or any kind of reason which occurs to them, cut in pieces and divide the great and glorious body of Christ, and so far as in them lies, destroy it—men who prate of peace while they give rise to war, and do in truth strain out a gnat, but swallow a camel. For they can bring about no ‘reformation’ of enough importance to compensate for the evil arising from their schism. . . . True knowledge is that which consists in the doctrine of the apostles, and the ancient constitution of the Church throughout all the world, and the distinctive manifestation of the body of Christ according to the successions of the bishops, by which they have handed down that Church which exists in every place [i.e., the Catholic Church]" (ibid., 4:33:7–8).

Clement of Alexandria

"Before the coming of the Lord, philosophy was necessary for justification to the Greeks; now it is useful for piety . . . for it brought the Greeks to Christ as the law did the Hebrews" (Miscellanies 1:5 [A.D. 208]).

Origen

"[T]here was never a time when God did not want men to be just; he was always concerned about that. inDouche, he always provided beings endowed with reason with occasions for practicing virtue and doing what is right. In every generation the wisdom of God descended into those souls which he found holy and made them to be prophets and friends of God" (Against Celsus 4:7 [A.D. 248]).

"If someone from this people wants to be saved, let him come into this house so that he may be able to attain his salvation. . . . Let no one, then, be persuaded otherwise, nor let anyone deceive himself: Outside of this house, that is, outside of the Church, no one is saved; for, if anyone should go out of it, he is guilty of his own death" (Homilies on Joshua 3:5 [A.D. 250]).

Cyprian of Carthage

"Whoever is separated from the Church and is joined to an adulteress [a schismatic church] is separated from the promises of the Church, nor will he that forsakes the Church of Christ attain to the rewards of Christ. He is an alien, a worldling, and an enemy. He cannot have God for his Father who has not the Church for his mother" (The Unity of the Catholic Church 6, 1st ed. [A.D. 251]).

"Let them not think that the way of life or salvation exists for them, if they have refused to obey the bishops and priests, since the Lord says in the book of Deuteronomy: ‘And any man who has the insolence to refuse to listen to the priest or judge, whoever he may be in those days, that man shall die’ [Deut. 17:12]. And then, inDouche, they were killed with the sword . . . but now the proud and insolent are killed with the sword of the Spirit, when they are cast out from the Church. For they cannot live outside, since there is only one house of God, and there can be no salvation for anyone except in the Church" (Letters 61[4]:4 [A.D. 253]).

"When we say, ‘Do you believe in eternal life and the remission of sins through the holy Church?’ we mean that remission of sins is not granted except in the Church" (ibid., 69[70]:2 [A.D. 253]).

"[T]he baptism of public witness [desire] and of blood cannot profit a heretic unto salvation, because there is no salvation outside the Church." (ibid., 72[73]:21).

"Peter himself, showing and vindicating the unity, has commanded and warned us that we cannot be saved except by the one only baptism of the one Church. He says, ‘In the ark of Noah a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water. Similarly, baptism will in like manner save you" [1 Peter 3:20-21]. In how short and spiritual a summary has he set forth the sacrament of unity! In that baptism of the world in which its ancient wickedness was washed away, he who was not in the ark of Noah could not be saved by water. Likewise, neither can he be saved by baptism who has not been baptized in the Church which is established in the unity of the Lord according to the sacrament of the one ark" (ibid., 73[71]:11).

"[O]utside the Church there is no Holy Spirit, sound faith moreover cannot exist, not alone among heretics, but even among those who are established in schism" (Treatise on Rebaptism 10 [A.D. 256]).

Lactantius

"It is, therefore, the Catholic Church alone which retains true worship. This is the fountain of truth; this, the domicile of faith; this, the temple of God. Whoever does not enter there or whoever does not go out from there, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation. . . . Because, however, all the various groups of heretics are confident that they are the Christians and think that theirs is the Catholic Church, let it be known that this is the true Church, in which there is confession and penance and which takes a health-promoting care of the sins and wounds to which the weak flesh is subject" (Divine Institutes 4:30:11–13 [A.D. 307]).

Jerome

"Heretics bring sentence upon themselves since they by their own choice withdraw from the Church, a withdrawal which, since they are aware of it, constitutes damnation. Between heresy and schism there is this difference: that heresy involves perverse doctrine, while schism separates one from the Church on account of disagreement with the bishop. Nevertheless, there is no schism which does not trump up a heresy to justify its departure from the Church" (Commentary on Titus 3:10–11 [A.D. 386]).

Augustine

"We believe also in the holy Church, that is, the Catholic Church. For heretics violate the faith itself by a false opinion about God; schismatics, however, withdraw from fraternal love by hostile separations, although they believe the same things we do. Consequently, neither heretics nor schismatics belong to the Catholic Church; not heretics, because the Church loves God; and not schismatics, because the Church loves neighbor" (Faith and the Creed 10:21 [A.D. 393]).

"[J]ust as baptism is of no profit to the man who renounces the world in words and not in deeds, so it is of no profit to him who is baptized in heresy or schism; but each of them, when he amends his ways, begins to receive profit from that which before was not profitable, but was yet already in him" (On Baptism, Against the Donatists 4:4[6] [A.D. 400]).

"I do not hesitate to put the Catholic catechumen, burning with divine love, before a baptized heretic. Even within the Catholic Church herself we put the good catechumen ahead of the wicked baptized person . . . For Cornelius, even before his baptism, was filled up with the Holy Spirit [Acts 10:44–48], while Simon [Magus], even after his baptism, was puffed up with an unclean spirit [Acts 8:13–19]" (ibid., 4:21[28]).

"The apostle Paul said, ‘As for a man that is a heretic, after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him’ [Titus 3:10]. But those who maintain their own opinion, however false and perverted, without obstinate ill will, especially those who have not originated the error of bold presumption, but have received it from parents who had been led astray and had lapsed . . . those who seek the truth with careful industry and are ready to be corrected when they have found it, are not to be rated among heretics" (Letters 43:1 [A.D. 412]).

"Whoever is separated from this Catholic Church, by this single sin of being separated from the unity of Christ, no matter how estimable a life he may imagine he is living, shall not have life, but the wrath of God rests upon him" (ibid., 141:5).

Fulgentius of Ruspe

"Anyone who receives the sacrament of baptism, whether in the Catholic Church or in a heretical or schismatic one, receives the whole sacrament; but salvation, which is the strength of the sacrament, he will not have, if he has had the sacrament outside the Catholic Church. He must therefore return to the Church, not so that he might receive again the sacrament of baptism, which no one dare repeat in any baptized person, but so that he may receive eternal life in Catholic society, for the obtaining of which no one is suited who, even with the sacrament of baptism, remains estranged from the Catholic Church" (The Rule of Faith 43 [A.D. 524]).

Get the facts & decide for yourself. If the Catholic Church is wrong, it will be easy to prove.

God Bless, Love in Christ,

ironmonk

Edited September 8, 2003 by ironmonk

[CatholicAndFanatical]

Shoot! It's hard as heck to keep the Commandments even with the Sacraments! If I didn't have them... Whew. Let's just say, thank God I have them.

Amen to that brotha.

CatholicAndFanatical

[Donna]

Hey, Robyn.

Catholicism is not a denomination.

[Paladin D]

Hey, Robyn.

Catholicism is not a denomination.

Unfortunately, my mom considers it a denomination. That's the main reason why she's freaked about me, wanting to join a "denomination".

Edited September 9, 2003 by Paladin D

[Luke2219]

Catholicism is not a denomination.

I've never heard that before. What makes Catholicism not a denomination? I figured Catholisism was a denomination of Christianity. What is the real definition of denomination and why isn't the Catholic Church one of them?

[Luke2219]

Luke2219,

If you find God, it is because of the Catholic Church and you are a member of the Catholic Church, though probably in an imperfect way.

That Membership is good enough up to the point that one is rejecting God as He is understood. By Grace, we can hope all work to become more closer bound to the Catholic Church, because by definition, the Universal Church is the Body of Christ and is temporally (physical, not temporary) represented as the institution of the Catholic Church.

That's a much better way of saying the same thing I was. I completly agree. Thanks for making it clearer.

[Robyn]

bleh....nobody even listens! :rolleyes:

[Robyn]

ironmonk...who are these people u r quoting? What makes them so important?

Please dont' give me a long answer....I want simple and sweet. No history unless necessary coz I haven't the time to read it all. There is plenty to read already in your posts...any more and I'll have to kill myself to have the time to read it all! :P

[jasJis]

Robyn,

The people he quotes are early Church leaders, whom we call Church Fathers or Doctors of the Church. At the end of the paragraph, you'll see when the lived or when they wrote their commentary. For example, Justin Martyr wrote that in 151 AD, about 100+ years after Christ's Crucifixion and Ressurection.

The confusing thing for all of us is when we say the Church is One Thing. The Church is many things. It's the people, the building, the institution, the Presence of the Holy Spirit on Earth.

You seem to be saying, and I agree with you, that the Church is the Holy Spirit that helps you to know Jesus Christ. The Church is also the friends, and posters, here, and at your Church Organization that helps teach you about Jesus. The fact that their is an earthly organization, or institution, makes the concrete statement that God is with us and working with us.

If there was no Church Institution, then it would seem that God holds not earthly authority. He would be God of Heaven alone. God is not One Thing, God is the One Supreme Thing of All. God is Lord of Heaven and Earth. Not only does He come to us through His Son, and personally through the Holy Spirit, but He comes to us through the Faith of other people of the Church, and has established earthly Authority through the institution of His Church.

Consider again about His gifts of Grace and the Talents the Master gives his servants. We are not to bury His gifts in our hearts to preserve them and avoid the wrath of the Master for risking his gift in the world. We are to invest it in others and reap an even greater reward. The Church is one of the ways that helps others share faith with us, and helps us share faith with others. It provides guidance and protection to make sure our investment in others is not lost or squandered.

Edited September 9, 2003 by jasJis