Wisdom Brings Death?

[Cathurian]

Alright. The passages in question are:

Genesis 2: 16-17
Genesis 3: 1-7
Genesis 3: 22-24

He says that the Bible is the enemy of wisdom, because if we eat and acquire wisdom, we will surely die. I have my own ideas about this subject but I just wanted to get other views on why God ordered Adam and Eve not to eat from the tree.

[Antonius]

(I am not a theologian, and the following may have error in it.)

God gave us free will, because He loves us more than we can imagine and a Father only desires the love of His children. He would have chosen differently for us, that we wouldn't have to understand Good and Evil, that we would only need to prance around in the Garden of Eden and have fun. But, if he didn't have the tree in there, what choice would we have? He had to give us at least one rule, how else then would we really, honestly love Him?

Our forefathers chose for us and ate of the poisoned fruit. Now we must live in this world and figure out what Good and Evil are. What wisdom do we need besides that we should love our Father? We didn't need that fruit, but Adam and Eve ate it anyway, since they believed the Deceiver. They thought that if they disobeyed their Father they would learn something extra, but they weren't sure what it was. They succumbed to the temptation of knowledge.

Their eyes were opened alright, and then they had to learn many other things taht they probably didn't want to know. Pain and sorrow and work and childbirth among other things.

It is not wisdom that kills us, but a desire for wisdom. It is a desire for anything other than a desire to love God above all else.

(That's my understanding, but I'm sure some trained theolgians could answer your question a lot better, because they have the wisdom of the Saints and the Church with them.)

[Guest JeffCR07]

His argument is, ultimately, totally unfounded.

Let me try to explain:

Scenario 1.) A 2 year old baby throws a steel spoon at his mother during a temper tantrum.

Scenario 2.) A 49 year old husband throws a steel spoon that he is holding at his wife when he is angry at her.

The child is not morally culpable for his actions, because he doesn't understand "right" and "wrong," "good" and "evil."

The husband does not get off so easy. He [i]is[/i] morally culpable, he understands the pain that the action will inflict and he understands his calling to be a loving husband. He understands these two things to be in contradiction, but does it anyway.

But by this guy's definition, that means that life is the "enemy of wisdom." This is not true though.

As a result of that first fall, we human beings all grow in wisdom (though some more than others). The Bible simply teaches that with this wisdom comes responsibility, for it is through wisdom that we come to do both right and wrong, good and evil. Does the Bible call it "the Tree of Wisdom of Evil" or of "Good and Evil?" There is a marked distinction. Wisdom is praised throughout the Bible, it is the great gift for which Solomon asks God.

No one could legitimately defend the thesis that the Bible is "anti-Wisdom" and do so in a scholastic manner.

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff

[St. Catherine]

(Edit wrong person)

Edited July 26, 2004 by St. Catherine

[Cure of Ars]

At first Adam and Eve had no knowledge of being separated from God. After the fall they did. This isn't the kind of knowledge that we want and it can only lead to wisdom if God penetrates the separation i.e Jesus. Without Jesus there is no wisdom.

[Aloysius]

has he ever heard of King Solomon? Has he read the Proverbs? because saying the Bible is the enemy of wisdom is the dumbest thing i've ever heard.

[Guest JeffCR07]

while the writer in question isn't here, and I understand the vehement rejection of a weak intellectual argument, try to be charitable, Al.

[phatcatholic]

first, it is helpful to provide the verses in question:

[b]Gen 2:16-17[/b]
[b]16 [/b]And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "You may freely eat of every tree of the garden;
[b]17 [/b]but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die."

[b]Gen 3:1-7[/b]
[b]1 [/b]Now the serpent was more subtle than any other wild creature that the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God say, 'You shall not eat of any tree of the garden'?"
[b]2 [/b]And the woman said to the serpent, "We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden;
[b]3 [/b]but God said, 'You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.'"
[b]4 [/b]But the serpent said to the woman, "You will not die.
[b]5 [/b]For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
[b]6 [/b]So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate; and she also gave some to her husband, and he ate.
[b]7 [/b]Then the eyes of both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves aprons.

[b]Gen 3:22-24[/b]
[b]22 [/b]Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever" --
[b]23 [/b]therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from which he was taken.
[b]24 [/b]He drove out the man; and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.


we see from these verses that the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was forbidden, to eat of it caused death. the devil tempted them to eat from the tree with the enticement that in doing so, they would become "like God." adam and even sucumbed to this temptation, ate from the tree, and obtained knowledge of good and evil.

when you take these verses together, and understand how they fit into one complete story it is easier to see that death came not from knowledge but from disobedience.

--they were told not to eat
--they ate anyway
--therefore, they suffered spiritual death

thus, knowledge of good and evil is a by-product of their disobedience, not the catalyst for their punishments in and of itself. it was not their attaining of wisdom but their [b]disobedience in attaining wisdom[/b] that caused their "death."

also, the verses reveal that it is not wisdom in general that we are referring to, but the particular knowledge that concerns good and evil. when i read the phrase "knowledge of good and evil" i understand it not so much as possessing factual information as much as being cognizant or aware of something. to know something is to be aquainted with it. before the fall, man was not aware of any conflict between good and evil. actually, they need not know anything in order to obtain communion w/ God, for this communion was theirs from the beginning. but, since they ate from the tree, man is constantly battling to negotiate the continuum between these two variables. now, we must constantly search and discern and struggle over what is right and wrong. it is only in that sense that "wisdom" is a punishment. our having to search for it is essentially a consequence of the fall.

now that this search is ours and required of us to attain the communion of God that was inherent before the fall, obtaining wisdom and knowledge is a good thing. God gave us minds and the ability to reason so that we can know him. the more wisdom we attain, especially concering the ways of the Lord and the distinctions between good and evil, the more empowered we are to serve him and obtain communion with him again.

so, to summarize, it was disobedience--not wisdom--that caused our death. furthermore, wisdom in and of itself is a good thing. it is instead our awareness of a conflict between good and evil and our having to search for truth that is our downfall.


i hope that all makes sense. i'm thinking about this for the first time, so i'm sure there are some points that need to be ironed out.

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[Aloysius]

[quote name='JeffCR07' date='Jul 26 2004, 03:19 PM'] while the writer in question isn't here, and I understand the vehement rejection of a weak intellectual argument, try to be charitable, Al. [/quote]


sorry


but stiiillllll.... PROVERBS!!!! come on...

[Guest JeffCR07]

Hey man, I'm with you all the way there. The argument pretty much holds no water at all, and you could probably use phat's technique of "close your eyes, pick a line," do it to the Bible, and more than likely the line you pick will say something contrary to his premise.

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='JeffCR07' date='Jul 27 2004, 10:16 AM'] Hey man, I'm with you all the way there. The argument pretty much holds no water at all, and you could probably use phat's technique of "close your eyes, pick a line," do it to the Bible, and more than likely the line you pick will say something contrary to his premise.

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff [/quote]
hehe, my technique is catching on