goldenchild17 Posted July 25, 2004 Share Posted July 25, 2004 Hey, I was wondering if there was anyone that would be willing to help me understand this. This is one thing that I've always had trouble with. Is there a Catholic version of predestination? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StColette Posted July 26, 2004 Share Posted July 26, 2004 the best I can do is give you this [url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=7728"]http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=7728[/url] Its the link to the reference section on Justification, Salvation, and Predestination Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted July 26, 2004 Share Posted July 26, 2004 [b]Catholic Position on Predestination:[/b] [url="http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ120.HTM"]http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ120.HTM[/url] [url="http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/num21.htm"]http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/num21.htm[/url] [quote][b]SUMMARY OF CATHOLIC TEACHING:[/b] 1. God knows all things, including those who will be saved (THE ELECT). 2. God's foreknowledge does not destroy, but includes, free will. 3. God desires all men to be saved. 4. Jesus died to redeem all men. 5. God provides sufficient grace for all men to be saved. 6. Man, in the exercise of his free will, can accept or reject grace. 7. Those who accept grace are saved, or born-again. 8. Those who are born-again can fall away or fall into sin. 9. Not everyone who is saved will persevere in grace. 10. Those who do persevere are God's elect. 11. Those who do not persevere, or who never accepted grace, are the reprobate. 12. Since we can always reject God in this life, we have no absolute assurance that we will persevere. 13. We can have a moral assurance of salvation if we maintain faith and keep God's commandments (1 John 2:1-6; 3:19-23; 5:1-3,13).[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theoketos Posted July 26, 2004 Share Posted July 26, 2004 Even more basic is that we are all ment to go to Heaven, but some of us go to Hell because they choose to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JeffCR07 Posted July 26, 2004 Share Posted July 26, 2004 Yes there is, though it is distinctly different than John Calvin's "Double Predestination." The Church teaches that God has two types of "wills," his Active Will and his Permissive Will. The Active Will is made up of those times where God directly affects something, such as making the world, making man, parting the Red Sea, Rising from the Dead, etc. The Permissive Will is made up of those things which He allows to occur, though does not directly cause, such as our sin. So God's Active Will created us as Free Beings. His Permissive Will allows for our freedom, though does not cause the choices that we make. So, if humans really do have Free Will, how does Catholic Predestination work? Well, there are two theories on it, but the wiser of the two, which is backed by a great many number of Saints, one being St. Francis DeSales, goes like this: God created all men for the purpose of partaking in His Divine Nature and being in communion with Him. God made us free, so that this communion would be a true coming together. God is both Eternal, and knows everything. So God can see the choices that we will make, though he does not cause them, just as I can see two people play tennis without causing them to play tennis. The people who God "sees" attaining Heaven are the "Elect" while the people who He "sees" failing are those that reject Him by their own Free Will. Know one can know who these "Elect" are, because we a.) Exist in Time b.) Are not All-Knowing Hope that helps a little bit, it is a very very shortened version! - Your Brother In Christ, Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted July 26, 2004 Share Posted July 26, 2004 just a quick note to directly state what Jeff was implying: --Calvinists believe that God directly wills people to hell, whereas Catholics believe that God's permissive will allows us to choose hell for ourselves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldenchild17 Posted July 27, 2004 Author Share Posted July 27, 2004 Okay, yeah thanks Jeff... That's basically what I'm looking for. If anyone could give me more info on this or a place where I can study Catholic predestination that would be cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JeffCR07 Posted July 27, 2004 Share Posted July 27, 2004 My pleasure, glad I could help! Also, props to phat! Sometimes I get too into it and completely skip over the most important parts (ie I'm retarted) so thanks a ton. Goldenchild, if you need any more information on it, phatcatholic has an amazing amount of awesome stuff that will teach you the [i]orthodox[/i] (read "official/legitimate/correct") teachings of the Church on Predestination. You can find it in the Reference Section, cleverly titled "Predestination" - Your Brother In Christ, Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted July 27, 2004 Share Posted July 27, 2004 [b]Predestination[/b] --[url="http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ120.HTM"]Catholic Predestination[/url] --[url="http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ474.HTM"]Which Body is Closer to Augustine: Reformed Protestants or Present-Day Catholics?[/url] --[url="http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/tulip.htm"]A Tiptoe Through TULIP[/url] --[url="http://www.bringyou.to/philvaz/articles/num21.htm"]Predestination, Catholicism, and Calvinism[/url] --[url="http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/loss.htm"]Are All True Christians Predestined to Persevere?[/url] --[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/THEOLOGY/AUGUSTIN.htm"]St. Aiugustine on Grace and Predestination[/url] --[url="http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/a83.htm"]Grace and Predestination[/url] --[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/PREDESTI.TXT"]Predestination[/url] --[url="http://cuf.org/member/predestination.pdf"]Chosen in Him: The Catholic Teaching on Predestination[/url] --[url="http://www.cathinsight.com/apologetics/election.htm"]The Presumption of Election in Protestant Thought[/url] --[url="http://www.catholicsource.net/Predestination.html"]Predestination and the Catholic Church[/url] --[url="http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ454.HTM"]Calvinist Confusion Concering Election, Valid Baptism, and Christian Brotherhood[/url] --[url="http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ348.HTM"]The "Ransom Theory" of Atonement in the Fathers[/url] --[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/AUG2.TXT"]Augustine Debate on Universal Atonement[/url] --[url="http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ217.HTM"]Calvin, Supralapsarianism, and God's Sovereignty[/url] --[url="http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ484.HTM"]Lutheranism vs. Catholicism[/url] --[url="http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ66.HTM"]Reflections on Judgment and Sufficient Knowledge for Salvation[/url] --[url="http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ121.HTM"]Dialogue on the Nature of God's Foreknowledge and Sovereignty (Molinism)[/url] --[url="http://www.internetpadre.com/providence.htm"]Providence[/url] --[url="http://www.nd.edu/~afreddos/papers/murray.htm"]Leibniz, Divine Foreknowledge, and Human Freedom[/url] --[url="http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billcraig/docs/newcomb.html"]Divine Foreknowledge and Newcomb's Paradox[/url] [b]Total Depravity and Free Will[/b] --[url="http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ167.HTM"]Total Depravity and the Fall[/url] --[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/FILTHY.TXT"]"Filthy Rags" ([b]Isaiah 64:5[/b])[/url] --[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=127922"]Against Total Depravity[/url] --[url="http://www.envoymagazine.com/backissues/article.asp?ID=109"]An Encounter Predestined: Free Will and Predestination[/url] --[url="http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ135.HTM"]"All Have Sinned" (Mary?)[/url] --[url="http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ524.HTM"]The Biblical Evidence for Original Sin[/url] --[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06259a.htm"]Free Will[/url] --[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/LUTHVER.TXT"]Luther on Free Will[/url] --[url="http://cuf.org/member/predestinationandfreewill.pdf"]Predestination and Free Will[/url] --[url="http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~uctytho/dfwvanInwagen2.html"]On Free Will[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JeffCR07 Posted July 27, 2004 Share Posted July 27, 2004 sexy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted July 27, 2004 Share Posted July 27, 2004 [quote name='JeffCR07' date='Jul 27 2004, 03:22 PM'] sexy [/quote] too bad more females aren't as equally impressed............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StColette Posted July 27, 2004 Share Posted July 27, 2004 lol boy Apologetics phorum sure is an interesting place Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JeffCR07 Posted July 28, 2004 Share Posted July 28, 2004 hahaha, what can I say, I just love a man that knows his apologetics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted July 28, 2004 Share Posted July 28, 2004 Interesting... Anyway... My second link provides a side-by-side comparison of Catholic and Calvinist predestination, which makes study very easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted July 28, 2004 Share Posted July 28, 2004 thedude............i still need ur answers to the Questionnaire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now