Follow Your Heart!

[Kilroy the Ninja]

word dUSt

[Guest JeffCR07]

hahaha, Dust, guess what book I'm reading/falling in love with right now!

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Jul 25 2004, 06:22 PM'] There is an absolute truth, and it can be known through the Catholic Church. [/quote]
*cough* THE BIBLE *cough*

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='dUSt' date='Jul 26 2004, 03:41 PM'] The past few years I've been slowly developing a strong [b]opposition[/b] to myself. Sounds weird, but I [b]don't[/b] want to follow "my heart" or my "reason". I want God to control me, through His Church. [/quote]
I want God to control me too, except through the teaching of His Word, the Bible.

[Quietfire]

Icthus,
To understand Christ better you must understand the New Testament.
To understand the New Testament you must understand it was written by and for Catholics.
When you understand that little, then you must understand that only the Church can help you understand it fully.
Anything else isnt the fullness of Truth.



I wonder what Bible youre reading?

Peace.

Edited July 29, 2004 by Quietfire

[catholicguy]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Jul 29 2004, 05:21 PM'] *cough* THE BIBLE *cough* [/quote]
*cough* the Bible wasn't compiled until AD 400 or widely available until after 1500, I guess there was no way to find absolute truth until 500 years ago *cough*

Edited July 29, 2004 by catholicguy

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='catholicguy' date='Jul 29 2004, 06:25 PM'] *cough* the Bible wasn't compiled until AD 400 or widely available until after 1500, I guess there was no way to find absolute truth until 500 years ago *cough*

[/quote]
The writings of the Apostles were recognised as Scripture as soon as they were written. This is evidenced by St. Peter calling St. Paul's letters 'scripture'

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='Quietfire' date='Jul 29 2004, 05:45 PM'] When you understand that little, then you must understand that only the Church can help you understand it fully.
[/quote]
I thought that was the Holy Spirit's job?

[catholicguy]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Jul 29 2004, 06:44 PM'] The writings of the Apostles were recognised as Scripture as soon as they were written. This is evidenced by St. Peter calling St. Paul's letters 'scripture' [/quote]
So where does that leave the rest of the New Testament? And that doesn't exclude other works that are NOT a part of the Bible from being a part of the Bible (Gospel of St. Thomas, Gospel of St. James, etc.). The Bible was written by the Catholic Church, compiled by the Catholic Church, preservd by the Catholic Church, and is interpreted accurately ONLY by the Catholic Church.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Jul 29 2004, 07:21 PM'] *cough* THE BIBLE *cough* [/quote]
If absolute truth could be known from the Bible (which came from the Catholic Church) then all the 34,000 and growing churches that claim bible alone would agree on everything.


The fact that there is more than one church that uses the bible and has very different beliefs proves that the bible alone CANNOT be the guide of faith.


What does the bible say the pillar and foundation of truth is? Answer: The Church. 1 Tim 3:15



Why do you want the truth to be wrong? Are you angery with God the Father or the Son? Is there something that you want that the Truth does not allow?

Why don't you do the homework yourself?

My sig, has been for you.


God Bless.
ironmonk.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Jul 29 2004, 08:44 PM'] The writings of the Apostles were recognised as Scripture as soon as they were written. This is evidenced by St. Peter calling St. Paul's letters 'scripture' [/quote]
He didn't call St Paul's writings scripture. You are lost in translation.... "other" does not mean also or equal to.

"other" means something else.

Paul's letters were not considered Scripture until the late 300's. The Gospels were accepted in the second century, but not declared until the Church did.

How do you think the OT came about??? From the authority of the High Priest. An angel or prophet didn't pick them, God, working through the High Priest did... just as He did with the Church.

I do not understand why you allow so many loose ends in the theology you've been practicing lately... Abosolute truth can only be known through the Church. Those who choose bible alone cause division, which is the work of satan, not Christ.

Why don't you actually study the forming of Canon????


From Britannica:


[quote]
New Testament canon, texts, and versions
The New Testament canon
Conditions aiding the formation of the canon
The New Testament consists of 27 books, which are the residue, or precipitate, out of many 1st–2nd-century-AD writings that Christian groups considered sacred. In these various writings the early church transmitted its traditions: its experience, understanding, and interpretation of Jesus as the Christ and the self-understanding of the church. In a seemingly circuitous interplay between the historical and theological processes, the church selected these 27 writings as normative for its life and teachings—i.e., as its canon (from the Greek kanon, literally, a reed or cane used as a measuring rod and, figuratively, a rule or standard). Other accounts, letters, and revelations—e.g., the Didache (Teaching of the Twelve Apostles), Gospel of Peter, First Letter of Clement, Letter of Barnabas, Apocalypse (Revelation) of Peter, Shepherd of Hermas—exist, but through a complex process the canon was fixed for both the Eastern and Western churches in the 4th century. The canon contained four Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John), Acts, 21 letters, and one book of a strictly revelatory character, Revelation. These were not necessarily the oldest writings, not all equally revelatory, and not all directed to the church at large.

The Old Testament in its Greek translation, the Septuagint (LXX), was the Bible of the earliest Christians. The New Covenant, or Testament, was viewed as the fulfillment of the Old Testament promises of salvation that were continued for the new Israel, the church, through the Holy Spirit, which had come through Christ, upon the whole people of God. Thus, the Spirit, which in the Old Testament had been viewed as resting only on special charismatic figures, in the New Testament became “democratized”—i.e., was given to the whole people of the New Covenant. In postbiblical Judaism of the first Christian centuries, it was believed that the Spirit had ceased after the writing of the Book of Malachi (the last book of the Old Testament canon) and that no longer could anyone say “Thus saith the Lord,” as had the prophets, nor could any further holy writ be produced.

The descent of the Spirit on the community of the Messiah (i.e., the Christ) was thus perceived by Christians as a sign of the beginning of the age to come, and the church understood itself as having access to that inspiration through the Spirit. Having this understanding of itself, the church created the New Testament canon not only as a continuation and fulfillment of the Old Testament but also as qualitatively different, because a new age had been ushered in. These 27 books, therefore, were not merely appended to the traditional Jewish threefold division of the Old Testament—the Law (Torah), the Prophets (Nevi’im), and the Writings (Ketuvim)—but rather became the New Testament, the second part of the Christian Bible, of which the Old Testament is the first.

Because of a belief that something almost magical occurs—with an element of secrecy—when a transmitted oral tradition is put into writing, there was, in both the Old and New Testaments, an expression of reluctance about committing sacred material to writing. When such sacred writings are studied to find the revealed word of God, a settled delimiting of the writings—i.e., a canon—must be selected. In the last decade of the 1st century, the Synod of Jamnia (Jabneh), in Palestine, fixed the canon of the Bible for Judaism, which, following a long period of flux and fluidity and controversy about certain of its books, Christians came to call the Old Testament. A possible factor in the timing of this Jewish canon was a situation of crisis: the fall of Jerusalem and reaction to the fact that the Septuagint was used by Christians and to their advantage, as in the translation of the Hebrew word ‘alma (“young woman”) in chapter 7, verse 14, of Isaiah—“Behold, a young woman shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel”—into the Greek term parthenos (“virgin”).

As far as the New Testament is concerned, there could be no Bible without a church that created it; yet conversely, having been nurtured by the content of the writings themselves, the church selected the canon. The concept of inspiration was not decisive in the matter of demarcation because the church understood itself as having access to inspiration through the guidance of the Spirit. Indeed, until c. AD 150, Christians could produce writings either anonymously or pseudonymously—i.e., using the name of some acknowledged important biblical or apostolic figure. The practice was not believed to be either a trick or fraud. Apart from letters in which the person of the writer was clearly attested—as in those of Paul, which have distinctive historical, theological, and stylistic traits peculiar to Paul—the other writings placed their emphases on the message or revelation conveyed, and the author was considered to be only an instrument or witness to the Holy Spirit or the Lord. When the message was committed to writing, the instrument was considered irrelevant, because the true author was believed to be the Spirit. By the mid-2nd century, however, with the delay of the final coming (the Parousia) of the Messiah as the victorious eschatological (end-time) judge and with a resulting increased awareness of history, increasingly a distinction was made between the apostolic time and the present. There also was a gradual cessation of “authentically pseudonymous” writings in which the author could identify with Christ and the Apostles and thereby gain ecclesiastical recognition.


The process of canonization
The process of canonization was relatively long and remarkably flexible and detached; various books in use were recognized as inspired, but the Church Fathers noted, without embarrassment or criticism, how some held certain books to be canonical and others did not. Emerging Christianity assumed that through the Spirit the selection of canonical books was “certain” enough for the needs of the church. Inspiration, it is to be stressed, was neither a divisive nor a decisive criterion. Only when the canon had become self-evident was it argued that inspiration and canonicity coincided, and this coincidence became the presupposition of Protestant orthodoxy (e.g., the authority of the Bible through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit).



[b]Roman Catholicism [/b]
Encyclopædia Britannica Article


Christian church characterized by its uniform, highly developed doctrinal and organizational structure that traces its history to the Apostles of Jesus Christ in the 1st century AD. Along with Eastern Orthodoxy and Protestantism, it is one of the three major branches of Christianity.



About AD 95 Clement, bishop of Rome, in his letter to the church in Corinth ( First Letter of Clement ), expressed the view that bishops succeeded the Apostles.

originally titled Letter To The Church Of Corinth;  also called I Clement,  a letter to the Christian Church in Corinth from the church of Rome, traditionally ascribed to and almost certainly written by St. Clement I of Rome, c. AD 96. It is extant in a 2nd-century Latin translation, which is possibly the oldest surviving Latin Christian work. Regarded as scripture by many 3rd- and 4th-century Christians, it was transmitted in manuscripts with a sermon known as the Second Letter of Clement, written c. 125-140 by an unknown author.

Concerned about a dispute in the Corinthian Church in which younger members had deposed older men from the ministry, the letter opposed the deposition and discussed the orders of the ministry, which it asserted were established by the Apostles and were the will of God. The First Letter of Clement was an important influence on the development in the church of the episcopal orders of the ministry (bishops, priests, deacons), and it has been used to support the doctrine of the apostolic succession, according to which bishops represent a direct, unbroken line of succession from the Apostles.



The idea of apostolic succession appears in the writings of Irenaeus, a Church Father who died about 202. Against the Gnostics (dualistic sects that maintained that salvation is not from faith but from some esoteric knowledge) Irenaeus urged that the Catholic teaching was verified because a continuous succession of teachers, beginning with the Apostles, could be demonstrated. In the 3rd and 4th centuries problems of schism within churches were resolved by appealing to the power of orders (i.e., the powers a person has by reason of his ordination either as deacon, priest, or bishop) transmitted by the imposition of hands through a chain from the Apostles. Orders in turn empowered the subject to receive the power of jurisdiction (i.e., the powers an ordained person has by reason of his office). In disputes between Rome and the Eastern churches the idea of apostolic succession was centred in the Roman pontiff, the successor of Peter; it will be observed that this goes beyond the idea of collegial succession. Apostolic authority is defined as the power to teach, to administer the sacraments, and to rule the church. Apostolic succession in the Roman Catholic understanding is validated only by the recognition of the Roman pontiff; and the Roman Catholic Church understands the designation "apostolic" in the creed as referring to this threefold power under the primacy of the Roman pontiff.

The idea of apostolic succession appears in the writings of Irenaeus, a Church Father who died about 202. Against the Gnostics (dualistic sects that maintained that salvation is not from faith but from some esoteric knowledge) Irenaeus urged that the Catholic teaching was verified because a continuous succession of teachers, beginning with the Apostles, could be demonstrated. In the 3rd and 4th centuries problems of schism within churches were resolved by appealing to the power of orders (i.e., the powers a person has by reason of his ordination either as deacon, priest, or bishop) transmitted by the imposition of hands through a chain from the Apostles. Orders in turn empowered the subject to receive the power of jurisdiction (i.e., the powers an ordained person has by reason of his office). In disputes between Rome and the Eastern churches the idea of apostolic succession was centred in the Roman pontiff, the successor of Peter; it will be observed that this goes beyond the idea of collegial succession. Apostolic authority is defined as the power to teach, to administer the sacraments, and to rule the church. Apostolic succession in the Roman Catholic understanding is validated only by the recognition of the Roman pontiff; and the Roman Catholic Church understands the designation "apostolic" in the creed as referring to this threefold power under the primacy of the Roman pontiff.

[/quote]





Seeing that St. Augustine was a Bishop that had a role in making the Canon of the NT, why not listen to him?


[quote]

[b]St. Augustine of Hippo (11/13/354 - 8/28/430 AD)[/b]
[b]On Christian Doctrine [/b]
BOOK II.

CHAP. 8.--THE CANONICAL BOOKS.
Now, in regard to the canonical Scriptures, he must follow the judgment of the greater number of catholic churches; and among these, of course, a high place must be given to such as have been thought worthy to be the seat of an apostle and to receive epistles.

BOOK III
[b]CHAP. 10.--HOW WE ARE TO DISCERN WHETHER A PHRASE IS FIGURATIVE[/b]

15.....[b]Now Scripture asserts nothing but the catholic faith, in regard to things past, future, and present. It is a narrative of the past, a prophecy of the future, and a description of the present. But all these tend to nourish and strengthen charity, and to overcome and root out lust.[/b]

On the Trinity

BOOK I.
CHAPTER 4.--WHAT THE DOCTRINE OF THE CATHOLIC FAITH IS CONCERNING THE TRINITY.

7..... "I have both glorified it,and will glorify it again;" but that it was a word of the Father only, spoken to the Son; although the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, as they are indivisible, so work indivisibly. [b]This is also my faith, since it is the Catholic faith. [/b]



CHAPTER 13.--
31....."the righteous man shall not be afraid" if only he be kept in "the tabernacle," that is, in the true faith of the Catholic Church, from "the strife of tongues," that is, from the sophistries of heretics. But if there is any other explanation of the words of the Lord, where He says, "Why asketh thou me about good? there is none good, but One, that is, God;" provided only that the substance of the Father be not therefore believed to be of greater goodness than that of the Son, according to which He is the Word by whom all things were made; and if there is nothing in it abhorrent from sound doctrine; let us securely use it, and not one explanation only, but as many as we are able to find. For so much the more powerfully are the heretics proved wrong, the more outlets are open for avoiding their snares. But let us now start afresh, and address ourselves to the consideration of that which still remains.

CHAPTER 17.--

[b]....standing on the solid foundation of faith, which the rock signifies, and beholding it from such a safe watch-tower, namely in the Catholic Church, of which it is said, "And upon this rock I will build my Church." [/b]For so much the more certainly we love that face of Christ, which we earnestly desire to see, as we recognize in His back parts how much first Christ loved us.

OF THE MORALS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

[DE MORIBUS ECCLESIAE CATHOLICAE] A.D. 388.

IT IS LAID DOWN AT THE OUTSET THAT THE CUSTOMS OF THE HOLY LIFE OF THE CHURCH SHOULD BE REFERRED TO THE CHIEF GOOD OF MAN, THAT IS, GOD. WE MUST SEEK AFTER GOD WITH SUPREME AFFECTION; AND THIS DOCTRINE IS SUPPORTED IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH BY THE AUTHORITY OF BOTH TESTAMENTS. THE FOUR VIRTUES GET THEIR NAMES FROM DIFFERENT FORMS OF THIS LOVE. THEN FOLLOW THE DUTIES OF LOVE TO OUR NEIGHBOR. IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH WE FIND EXAMPLES OF CONTINENCE AND OF TRUE CHRISTIAN CONDUCT

[b]CHAP. 18.--ONLY IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS PERFECT TRUTH ESTABLISHED ON THE HARMONY OF BOTH TESTAMENTS. [/b]

33...... But were there in you that love of which we are speaking, or should it ever be in you as much as the greatness of the truth to be known requires, may God vouchsafe to show you that neither is there among the Manichaeans [b]the Christian faith which leads to the summit of wisdom and truth, the attainment of which is the true happy life, nor is it anywhere but in the Catholic teaching[/b]. Is not this what the Apostle Paul appears to desire when he says, "For this cause I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, that He would grant unto you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might by His Spirit in the inner man: that Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all saints what is the height, and length, and breadth, and depth, and to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye may be filled with all the fullness of God?" Could anything be more plainly expressed?

34. Wake up a little, I beseech you, and see the harmony of both Testaments, making it quite plain and certain what should be the manner of life in our conduct, and to what all things should be referred. To the love of God we are incited by the gospel, when it is said, "Ask, seek, knock;" by Paul, when he says, "That ye, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend;" by the prophet also, when he says that wisdom can easily be known by those who love it, seek for it, desire it, watch for it, think about it, care for it. The salvation of the mind and the way of happiness is pointed out by the concord of both Scriptures; and yet you choose rather to bark at these things than to obey them. I will tell you in one word what I think. Do you listen to the learned men of the Catholic Church with as peaceable a disposition, and with the same zeal, that I had when for nine years I attended on you: there will be no need of so long a time as that during which you made a fool of me. In a much, a very much, shorter time you will see the difference between truth and vanity.

CHAP. 30.--THE CHURCH APOSTROPHISED AS TEACHER OF ALL WISDOM. DOCTRINE OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

62. But why say more on this? For who but sees that men who dare to speak thus against the Christian Scriptures, though they may not be what they are suspected of being, are at least no Christians? For to Christians this rule of life is given, that we should love the Lord Our God with all the heart, with all the soul, and with all the mind, and our neighbor as ourselves; for on these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. Rightly, then, Catholic Church, most true mother of Christians, dost thou not only teach that God alone, to find whom is the happiest life, must be worshipped in perfect purity and chastity, bringing in no creature as an object of adoration whom we should be required to serve; and from that incorrupt and inviolable eternity to which alone man should be made subject, in cleaving to which alone the rational soul escapes misery, excluding everything made, everything liable to change, everything under the power of time; without confounding what eternity, and truth, and peace itself keeps separate, or separating what a common majesty unites: but thou dost also contain love and charity to our neighbor in such a way, that for all kinds of diseases with which souls are for their sins afflicted, there is found with thee a medicine of prevailing efficacy.

66.....Only the Manichaeans, who make a boast of nothing, should be reminded that the abstinence and continence of the great saints of the Catholic Church has gone so far, that some think it should be checked and recalled within the limits of humanity,--so far above men, even in the judgment of those who disapprove, have their minds soared.

CHAP. 32.--PRAISE OF THE CLERGY.

69. There is not, however, such narrowness in the moral excellence of the Catholic Church as that I should limit my praise of it to the life of those here mentioned. For how many bishops have I known most excellent and holy men, how many, presbyters, how many deacons, and ministers of all kinds of the divine sacraments, whose virtue seems to me more admirable and more worthy of commendation on account of the greater difficulty of preserving it amidst the manifold varieties of men, and in this life of turmoil! For they preside over men needing cure as much as over those already cured. The vices of the crowd must be borne with in order that they may be cured, and the plague must be endured before it is subdued. To keep here the best way of life and a mind calm and peaceful is very hard. Here, in a word, we are among people who are learning to live. There they live.

76. [b]My advice to you now is this: that you should at least desist from slandering the Catholic Church[/b], by declaiming against the conduct of men whom the Church herself condemns, seeking daily to correct them as wicked children. Then, if any of them by good will and by the help of God are corrected, they regain by repentance what they had lost by sin. Those, again, who with wicked will persist in their old vices, or even add to them others still worse, are indeed allowed to remain in the field of the Lord, and to grow along with the good seed; but the time for separating the tares will come. Or if, from their having at least the Christian name, they are to be placed among the chaff rather than among thistles, there will also come One to purge the floor and to separate the chaff from the wheat, and to assign to each part (according to its desert) the due reward.


[/quote]




Why follow men of 1517 AD when you can follow those that Christ appointed in 33 AD?


Acts 20:29-30.


God Bless.
ironmonk.

Edited July 30, 2004 by ironmonk

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Jul 29 2004, 09:25 PM'] He didn't call St Paul's writings scripture. You are lost in translation.... "other" does not mean also or equal to.

"other" means something else. [/quote]
So what does it mean then?

By the way, in that epistle of Augustine he was defending against people that Protestants consider heretics as well (Manichaeans, Donatists, etc). Hence, in it's proper sense, we would affirm his letter.

Edited July 30, 2004 by ICTHUS

[XIX]

I think we are to direct our hearts towards God:

[b]Matthew 6:21 - For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.[/b]

[ironmonk]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Jul 30 2004, 08:05 PM'] So what does it mean then?

By the way, in that epistle of Augustine he was defending against people that Protestants consider heretics as well (Manichaeans, Donatists, etc). Hence, in it's proper sense, we would affirm his letter. [/quote]
"Other" in this case means "something else"

The "something else" in this case was St. Paul's writings. They were not considered Scripture.


St. Augustine was a Catholic Bishop. Of the group established by Christ. The only non-heretic church is the Catholic Church. It was first, it will never be overcome, and has the power to forgive sins as Christ gave it.

The Church that gave us the NT is the Church with authority, all who are against her are spoken of in Acts 20:29-30.


Read the bible and keep reading it, and read the first Christian writings. [url="http://www.NewAdvent.org/fathers/"]http://www.NewAdvent.org/fathers/[/url]


God Bless,
ironmonk

[Tora-Musume]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Jul 31 2004, 01:51 PM']

Read the bible and keep reading it, and read the first Christian writings. [url="http://www.NewAdvent.org/fathers/"]http://www.NewAdvent.org/fathers/[/url]


[/quote]
If I read everything in the Bible and followed through with it all, what is there left for me to learn on my own? Bible stated something like...if you're hands cause you to sin, cut it off. In this sin, does it consist of pricking my finger to check my blood sugar level? Does it mean that Doctor's are sinning since they are using a scalpel to do a heart transplant? It is a sin this and a sin that. That would mean we are all sinners. I guess I should read the Bible but then again, what will it do to me? I am already a sinner. The day I was born, I have been a sinner. Even when I was baptized a catholic, I was a sinner. I can never understand what the limit is before we are considered sinners. I think I through everyone off. What was the topic again?