Sinning In Dreamworld?

[Ash Wednesday]

In most cases I would think what happens in dreams is not considered sinful.

I've never thought of the possibility of someone sinning if they are dreaming lucidly. In such a situation I would talk with a well informed orthodox priest.

I really think it's a pretty grey area, because sometimes you will be dreaming in lucid mode, and the next thing you know, you aren't, and you forget you are in the dream, and things are no longer in your control. I've had that happen before.

Im inclined to think that a person that is practicing purity of heart would be less at risk of sinning in such a way, like in a lucid dream, if it were possible. I guess if you're tempted in a lucid dream, then handle it as you would in the waking world -- pray in your dream.



That sure is food for thought. I know I have no idea.

:thinking: :noidea:

[mmmerf]

I'd say while it might be possible to commit a venial sin in a dream, it would be completely impossible to commit a mortal sin. You just can't come up with grave matter in your sleep. Even if you think you've got grave matter in your dream, as soon as you woke up you'd realize you were mistaken. I think the worst you could say is that you were entertaining impure/uncharitable thoughts.

But if this is your number one sinning problem, you're doing way, way better than I am. Some of us can only dream about being that holy.

Bada-bing! :thumb:

Dave

[Antonius]

Didn't Jesus say that if you look at a woman impurely then you have already sinned in your heart?

Basically, sinning in a lucid dream would be an impure thought. So, if impure thoughts are mortal then you need to go to confession. Ash summed it up nicely about the purity of heart.

I would add that it takes more to avoid a sexual sin in lucid dreams than it does in waking life. But I'm a guy, so who knows...

[mmmerf]

I'd say this is bordering on scrupulosity...

Dave

[Antonius]

[quote]Scruple
(Lat. Scrupulus, "a small sharp, or pointed, stone", hence, in a transferred sense, "uneasiness of mind")

An unfounded apprehension and consequently unwarranted fear that something is a sin which, as a matter of fact, is not. It is not considered here so much as an isolated act, but rather as an habitual state of mind known to directors of souls as a "scrupulous conscience." St. Alphonsus describes it as a condition in which one influenced by trifling reasons, and without any solid foundation, is often afraid that sin lies where it really does not. This anxiety may be entertained not only with regard to what is to be done presently, but also with regard to what has been done. The idea sometimes obtaining, that scrupulosity is in itself a spiritual benefit of some sort, is, of course, a great error. The providence of God permits it and can gather good from it as from other forms of evil. That apart, however, it is a bad habit doing harm, sometimes grievously, to body and soul. Indeed, persisted in with the obstinacy characteristic of persons who suffer from this malady, it may entail the most lamentable consequences. The judgment is seriously warped, the moral power tired out in futile combat, and then not unfrequently the scrupulous person makes shipwreck of salvation either on the Scylla of despair or the Charybdis of unheeding indulgence in vice.

It is of great importance to be able to make a correct diagnosis of this disease. Hence especially guides of consciences should be familiar with the symptoms that betray its presence as well as with the causes which commonly give rise to it. For one thing, the confessor should not confound a delicate with a scrupulous conscience, neither should he interpret the reasonable solicitude sometimes discernible in those who are trying to emerge from a life of sin as a sign of scrupulosity. Then, too, ordinarily he ought not to hastily reach this conclusion on the very first experience of his penitent. It is true there are cases of scruples which may be recognized from the start, but this is not the rule. Some special indications that persons are really scrupulous, generally adopted by theologians are those enumerated by Lacroix. Among these is a certain rooted attachment to their own opinion which makes them unwilling to abide by the judgment of those whom they consult, even though these latter have every title to deference. In consequence, they go from one confessor to another, change their convictions with hardly a shadow of motive, and are tortured by an overshadowing dread that sin lurks in everything they do, and say, and think. The scrupulous may, and ought to, act in defiance of their misgivings, i.e. against their so-called conscience. Nor can they, therefore, be impeached as acting in a state of practical doubt. The unreal phantasm that affrights their imagination, or the unsubstantial consideration that offers itself to their disturbed reason, has no validity against the conscience once formed upon the pronouncement of the confessor or in some other equally trustworthy fashion. In the various perplexities as to the lawfulness of their actions they are not bound to employ any such scrutiny as would be incumbent upon persons in a normal condition. They are not bound to repeat anything of former confessions unless they are sure without protracted examination, that it is a mortal sin and has never been properly confessed.

Their chief remedy is, having reposed confidence in some confessor, to obey his decisions and commands entirely and absolutely. They are counselled also to avoid idleness, and thus to close the avenue of approach to the wild conjectures and strange ponderings responsible for so many of their worries. They should remove the cause of their scruples in so far as it may have been of their own choosing. Hence they are to guard against the reading of ascetical books of a rigorist trend and any intercourse with those afflicted in the same way as themselves. If the source of their scruples be ignorance -- for example, with regard to the obligation of some commandment -- they are to be instructed, discretion being used in the imparting of the necessary information. If it be a propensity to melancholy, certain harmless pleasures and rational enjoyments may be employed with advantage. Confessors to whom falls the difficult task of receiving the confessions of these harassed souls are to carefully inquire into the origin of the anxieties laid before them. They are to treat their unhappy penitents in general with great kindness. Occasionally, however, some degree of severity may be useful when the penitent shows an extreme tenacity in adhering to his own unreasonable view of the situation. As a rule, the confessor's answers to the innumerable troubles submitted should be clear, unaccompanied by reasons, and so unhesitating as to inspire courage. He should not permit the presentation indefinitely of the various doubts, much less, of course, the repetition of past confessions. Finally, he may sometimes do what should hardly ever be done in any other instance, that is, forbid the penitent to have recourse to another confessor.

[/quote] from newadvent.org, the catholic encyclopedia.

[Antonius]

I suppose you're almost right. We aren't really getting worried over this are we?

One has to be honest with oneself i suppose. Either you're striving for purity or you aren't. Besides, like Ash said, lucidity is a weird thing to begin with.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Antonius' date='Jul 26 2004, 12:34 PM'] Didn't Jesus say that if you look at a woman impurely then you have already sinned in your heart?

Basically, sinning in a lucid dream would be an impure thought. So, if impure thoughts are mortal then you need to go to confession. Ash summed it up nicely about the purity of heart.

I [/quote]
Nope.

One does not control the thought that comes to your mind, [i]dwelling[/i] on the thought is what makes it sinful.

[AngelofJesus]

Its in our Catechism. It says that if we are half asleep, we are not responsible nor accounted sinful for our thoughts.

It makes sense since Satan is constantly bombarding us with impure thoughts. When we sleep we could no longer control our thoughts, therefore cannot be accounted for them.

[prov31girl]

I would have to say that the things we do in our sleep are not considered sins. I am continually striving for purity but the enemy likes to attack me where I have no defense, which is through my dreams. Isn't it like that coward to do that? Where it would become a sin is if I dwell on the thought of that dream or something like that. So yeah...that's just my opinion.

Edited July 26, 2004 by prov31girl