Combining Church & State

[M.SIGGA]

hmmm... I don't think this is right, what do you all think:

[quote]GOP Seeks Catholic Parish Directories

Fri Jul 23, 2:06 AM ET 

By DOUGLASS K. DANIEL, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON - The Republican National Committee (news - web sites) has asked Bush-backing Roman Catholics to provide copies of their parish directories to help register Catholics to vote in the November election, a use of personal information not necessarily condoned by dioceses around the country.

In a story posted Thursday on its Web site, the National Catholic Reporter said a GOP official had urged people who attended a Catholic outreach event in January to provide parish directories and membership lists to the political party.


"Access to these directories is critical as it allows us to identify and contact those Catholics who are likely to be supportive of President Bush (news - web sites)'s compassionate conservative agenda," wrote Martin J. Gillespie, director of Catholic Outreach at the RNC. "Please forward any directories you are able to collect to my attention."


The RNC is using the information from parish directories only for its nonpartisan voter registration drive, RNC spokeswoman Christine Iverson told The Associated Press on Thursday. Those efforts target members of other faiths as well as people who belong to nonreligious organizations, she said.


Parish directories often contain personal information about church members, including names of family members, home addresses and phone numbers. Iverson said she did not know if the GOP had sought similar directories from other religious organizations or how many Catholic directories it received in response to Gillespie's request.


Susan Gibbs, the spokeswoman for the Catholic Archdiocese of Washington, D.C., which oversees 140 parishes in Washington and Maryland, said parish directories publish information only for use among church members and not for use by outside organizations no matter what their purpose.


"Parish directories are for helping parishioners get to know each other better and are strictly for that purpose. They are not intended to be used for any outside commercial purpose, solicitations or anything else," Gibbs said. "Parish directories or priest directories are not given to outside groups even if it's for a good cause."


Catholic parishioners provided that personal information with an expectation of what it would be used for, said Rebecca Summers of the office of communications for the Catholic Diocese of Kansas City-St. Joseph, Mo., which has more than 90 parishes.


"I'm not certain under any scenario that we would encourage someone responding to that appeal — for any purpose, whether it would be an environmental cause or any purpose other than what the people volunteered the information for," Summers told the AP.


The Catholic Church has its own nonpartisan voter registration initiatives and candidate forums, Gibbs said.


___ [/quote]

I don't think American politics should have anything to do with the Catholic Church whatsoever, even if the GOP might be the lesser of two evils. The RNC shouldn't have asked in the first place :angry:

[Theoketos]

I think that the Catholic Church should and must stay non-partisan.

[ironmonk]

The GOP has done nothing wrong.

The Church has done nothing wrong.

It's great what they're doing.

The Church should and does back people who teaches closest to it's values and priorities, right now, that's the Republican party.

[quote] only for its [b]nonpartisan [/b]voter registration drive,[/quote]


Catholic parshes should be telling people a vote for Kerry is a sin. This has nothing to do with a particular party, this has to do with an evil choice.

If we want abortion to end, we have got to get Catholics to vote for the only Catholic Choice... the alternative is evil... not just because of the killing of the unborn, but the sanctity of marriage... kerry has promised $3 Billion dollars to stem cell research! Do you have any idea how many lives would be ended because of that...?

God Bless,
ironmonk

[Don John of Austria]

Seperation of Church and State is a heretical condition of Our Country, The Church has already deifned it as a heresy, If you say that the Church should be seperate from the Church and the Church from the State then you are in error and guilty of a heresy as difined by Blessed Pius IX in the Syllubus of Errors. The Church Has every right to tell people how to Vote.

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Jul 24 2004, 03:10 PM'] Seperation of Church and State is a heretical condition of Our Country, The Church has already deifned it as a heresy, If you say that the Church should be seperate from the Church and the Church from the State then you are in error and guilty of a heresy as difined by Blessed Pius IX in the Syllubus of Errors. The Church Has every right to tell people how to Vote. [/quote]
Excellent post, Don.

[God Conquers]

Darn tootin' the Church has every right to tell people how to vote.

State is trying to control and dominate Church at this pointin history. It's a bad scene, and something's gotta give soon.

[Iacobus]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Jul 24 2004, 11:33 AM'] Catholic parshes should be telling people a vote for Kerry is a sin. This has nothing to do with a particular party, this has to do with an evil choice. [/quote]
I don't agree. Catholic Parish should be providing info on voting and what there is in a canadite to NOT vote for and what to look for. Neither Kerry or the "saint" you make Bush out to be really are pro life. The GOP is not pro life. The Dems aren't pro life. There is not party of God, only men of God. And men of God are in all parties.

Bush supports emb. Stem Cell research on existing lines. How is that pro life. That is like saying there are 1 million abortions per year in the US so we can allow 1 million abortions per year because it is pre existing. Come on. That logic is flawed but it is the logic Bush has about stem cell research.

And what the GOP is doing and what the Church is doing is wrong. I DO NOT want my info given away to any 3rd Party. I consented to have my info put into a parish directory so that other parishionars, people I know, can contact me if they so choose. I did not give my info to the Church to have it given to the Ogle County Dems or Reps or City Goverment or anyone at all. It is a viloation of my privacy and a breach of my trust.

As to the seperation of Church and State that is iffy for me. I see two degrees.

I see the turn of the century and old Spainish conquests under the name of God as wrong. Feeding Indians to dogs and/or enslaving them because they aren't converting (kinda hard when they didn't know Spanish) was wrong and the result of Church and State mixxing. Instrestingly through if you read the accounts of the nastyness of the Spainish or someone most are by Missionaries from the Catholic Church. So it wasn't the Church that was wrong it was a preversion of the faith by the state.

I don't want to see the 10 Commandments posted in schools and so forth. But that is me.

I also see State and Church hopelessly intertwined. If I am going to be a leader I have to live. If I am a Christian and I am living, I must live my faith and lead by example. So yeh. I don't see how you can seperate fully Church and State. They have to be and always shall be intertwined.

But nothing stops the state from destorting faith.

[cmotherofpirl]

i think you need to change your history books...

[1337 k4th0l1x0r]

[quote]Bush supports emb. Stem Cell research on existing lines. How is that pro life. That is like saying there are 1 million abortions per year in the US so we can allow 1 million abortions per year because it is pre existing. Come on. That logic is flawed but it is the logic Bush has about stem cell research. [/quote]

The pre-existing lines argument is not at all like a pre-existing number of abortions. No more deaths result from the use of the pre-existing embryonic stem cell line.

A better example would be if someone had vital organs removed prior to his death and they were transplanted in someone else. It is immoral to remove the vital organs before death, but currently legal. Suppose legislation is passed that makes it illegal to remove the organs before death. Would you require the transplant recipient to give up the organ he received?

Not only that, but Bush supports adult stem cell research a whole lot more than the embryonic stem cell research.

[quote]I don't want to see the 10 Commandments posted in schools and so forth. But that is me.[/quote]

But I guess we should continue with stuff like, "Thou shalt putteth on a condom before engaging your classmate." I think a little dosage of morality would help the schools out.

[catholicguy]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Jul 24 2004, 02:10 PM'] Seperation of Church and State is a heretical condition of Our Country, The Church has already deifned it as a heresy, If you say that the Church should be seperate from the Church and the Church from the State then you are in error and guilty of a heresy as difined by Blessed Pius IX in the Syllubus of Errors. The Church Has every right to tell people how to Vote. [/quote]
Great post!

[Don John of Austria]

[quote]I see the turn of the century and old Spainish conquests under the name of God as wrong. Feeding Indians to dogs and/or enslaving them because they aren't converting (kinda hard when they didn't know Spanish) was wrong and the result of Church and State mixxing. Instrestingly through if you read the accounts of the nastyness of the Spainish or someone most are by Missionaries from the Catholic Church. So it wasn't the Church that was wrong it was a preversion of the faith by the state[/quote]

Wow You do need to change your history books. There where cruel Spanish certianly, there were and are cruel everyone, but the Spanish on the whole where quite civil to the American indians, more than that Spanish missionaries either knew the tounge of the people they where Preaching to or in very rare instances had a translator, I challenge you to find a case where that was not so excepting of copurse explorati=ory missions where the Spanish came arcoss those they previously had no knowledge of.

[Iacobus]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Jul 26 2004, 06:11 PM']
Wow You do need to change your history books. There where cruel Spanish certianly, there were and are cruel everyone, but the Spanish on the whole where quite civil to the American indians, more than that Spanish missionaries either knew the tounge of the people they where Preaching to or in very rare instances had a translator, I challenge you to find a case where that was not so excepting of copurse explorati=ory missions where the Spanish came arcoss those they previously had no knowledge of. [/quote]
I am talking about the treatments descibed by a Fransician Missionary. That is most of what I was refering to. He wrote in protest of what the Spanish were doing in the name of God. Coming to America was so-so, nothing right or wrong with it, and trying to convert the Indaians was great. But the ensalvement and so forth was wrong. There are documents you can find, I think I still have my copy in my binder I might look it up. But they said something like "Bow to the king, or we kill you. Convert or we kill you. Be our slaves or we kill you." Ummm yeh. It was read in only Spanish and very few understood it and many were killed for being "rebelous" and many killed by mistake by deasesies.

And also kings claiming to have gained ruling powers from God. That type of mix scares me. But a mix of a ruler who truly lives his faith and forms his law on that faith doesn't at all.

[Quietfire]

[quote]I don't want to see the 10 Commandments posted in schools and so forth. But that is me.[/quote]

I cant even begin to expain how much that particular statement made my stomach churn.

Lets just continue with our current stripping, lets remove God from everything outside of our own personal home and life, and ya know what?

That strange little man that stands on the corner with a sign saying "The end is near" will make a whole lotta sense.

My love. Please hold on while I grab my fish.

[Iacobus]

[quote name='1337 k4th0l1x0r' date='Jul 26 2004, 03:24 PM'] But I guess we should continue with stuff like, "Thou shalt putteth on a condom before engaging your classmate." I think a little dosage of morality would help the schools out. [/quote]
No not at all. I just don't want the 10 Commandments in schools. We should teach mortaly but by example not by posting what we should do.

Part of this is from personal exprince. And I know that I am probly wrong on a whole. I just have been rubbed the wrong way by a lot of people who preach the 10 Commandments. I always thought that they were good people and went to emulate them. Than they showed off their disregard for them. So yeh. I am more of an example person.

[Quietfire]

[quote]Part of this is from personal exprince. And I know that I am probly wrong on a whole. I just have been rubbed the wrong way by a lot of people who preach the 10 Commandments. I always thought that they were good people and went to emulate them. Than they showed off their disregard for them. So yeh. I am more of an example person.[/quote]

Ok, so here we go again.
You are judging the Church by the actions (or lack of) of a particular person.
Actually, my exact words were...
[quote]This is far too commonplace today.
Judge a race by the actions of one person, one group of persons.
Judge a country by the actions of one person, one group of persons.
Judge a company by the actions of one person, one group of persons.
Judge a religion by the actions of one person, one group of persons.

Pushing the entire world aside for a moment, removing all other people from your thoughts, I would like to know specifically what your problem with the Church is?

I, for too long, only saw 'sin' in people who claimed to be Catholic. How many would say or do one thing, then do something totally 'wrong' in my book. Or do something that seemed to contradict anything worthy of a christian person. Then have the nerve to go to Mass, receive the eucharist, never went to confession, etc. I figured the entire faith was filled with hipocrites.

This is a big mistake. If all your complaints have to do with things like "my parents", "every Catholic I know", etc, then the problem is not them or the faith, the problem is you. Think about this. Without any anger or resentment, just think about this for a while.
This is something that I had to do myself, and it has lead me not only here but also wanting to be confirmed in the Church.
My problems or reservations were not with the Church, but with those 'lukewarm Catholics' you hear or know about.[/quote]


So if youre more of an example person, good for you.
That still doesnt make a hill of beans of difference when compared to having the 10 Commandments posted at schools and public places.

How often on this board have we seen people not understand the Churchs view on the 10 Commandments.
How many times have we been accused of mutilating it, using it out of context, CHANGING IT.

Maybe if more people understood exactly what it means, then there would be no need to having the 10 Commandments posted at schools and such.

Peace.