Natures Of The B V M

[mmmerf]

Hmm.

1. I haven't read thomas aquinas on this subject. So I'm gonna freestyle for a bit. Hoo-hah.

2. Mary was preserved from the stain of sin by the grace of her redeemer, Jesus Christ. He saved her every bit as much as he's saving the rest of us, just with her, he did it a little earlier. (We could call this 'Phoning ahead to ensure you had a womb upon arrival'.)(Zing!)

3. Augustine, I believe, said that the rewards of sin are sin.

4. She could have been preserved from sinning, but the physical effects of sin, visited upon the whole of humanity, may have affected her as well.

4a. This theory is backed up by the unfortunate fact that children sometimes die before the age of reason - I.e. before they can choose to sin.

4b. I suppose that one needs to differentiate between the physical effects of original sin (Death, work, hangnails, labour pains, paper cuts etc.) and the effects of original sin upon our will(concupiscence (sp?), continued popularity of Rod Stewart, etc.) Grace affects our will, our ability to choose God. But does grace (the indwelling of the Holy Spirit) change us physically, or is that something different (i.e. miraculous intervention?) Because this would back up Gabriel's greeting of 'Hail, full of grace.'


5. This (living with the physical effects of sin) would have caused greater devotion from her towards her son and Lord, as she would have had a greater understanding for the need for mankind's redemption. One has to think if she is the perfect disciple, she would have had a perfect understanding of her need of her Lord. This would have been accomplished here.

6. Mmm. tacos, so very tasty and good for you,.

Cheers,

Dave

[M.SIGGA]

[quote name='Dave' date='Jul 27 2004, 12:29 AM']1. True, but wouldn't it seem strange if Jesus, being God, did something of which one of God's creatures was incapable?
[/quote]
The question was never about Jesus. What makes the BVM different is that she was totally human and never touched sin in any form ever. I think your "_" might have gone way over my head; if it did, sorry.

I'm really trying show the most respect for the Queen of Heaven in this post, so please bear with me as I try to carefully explain my questions

[quote]I believe that in a post of Apotheoun's a long time ago, he explained the condition of Adam and Eve at the time of Creation. They were given not just sanctifying grace (which is divine intimicy) but ALSO four gifts, three of which I believe were Integrity, Immortality, and Impassibility (though I am not certain on the latter). Thus it seems to me that Immortality and Integrity (the prevention of degeneration of the body) are gifts given to us that are distinct and seperate from the sanctifying grace that is divine intimacy.

If this is true (and I believe that it is) then Mary could have died, as Christ died, without it having any affect or relation whatsoever to her sinlessness. God prevented Original Sin from staining her, and so she was free of concupiscence, but he simply did not grant her those four gifts.[/quote]

I'm checking this out... really really interesting. Is "Immaculate" the fourth?

[quote]The Church does not say whether or not Mary died. The Eastern Rites call her passing from this life to the next the Dormition or "falling asleep of the Mother of God." That is a good way to sum up a mystery I think. [/quote]

All the Catechism says is "when her life was finished" so I guess that means that she might not have actually died and fell asleep sort of instead I think... this idea seems answer my question about the possibilty of death.

How does the BVM understand humans, who are bombarded with grief and shame and pain and death if she never experienced it herself? Is it totally through united sufferings? because I don't understand how the BVM could actually take on all the sufferings of her Son, who is God.

I can see how someone innocent and pure can experience sorrow and physical pain, but how can someone experience real grief, depression, shame, and death(?) if they are totally pure and immaculate and showered in grace? Aren't these things related to imperfection and sin?

Thanks again.

[Guest JeffCR07]

[quote]How does the BVM understand humans, who are bombarded with grief and shame and pain and death if she never experienced it herself? Is it totally through united sufferings? because I don't understand how the BVM could actually take on all the sufferings of her Son, who is God.

I can see how someone innocent and pure can experience sorrow and physical pain, but how can someone experience real grief, depression, shame, and death(?) if they are totally pure and immaculate and showered in grace? Aren't these things related to imperfection and sin?[/quote]

Sigga, I believe that others, including yourself, have hinted at the answer already. We must understand that the "sinlessness" of Mary was not merely a lack of something (sin) but was an addition of perfect Sanctifying Grace. This Sanctifying Grace makes her connection to all of humanity significantly more intimate than anything you or I could ever know.

Let me try an example:

An aquaintance of yours is suffering from depression. You feel "sorry" for her, and experience a little bit of grief when you hear about it, but that is about it.

A friend of your is suffering from depression. You feel "sorry" for her, and experience quite a bit of grief when you hear about it, because she is dear to you.

Your Best Friend is suffering from depression. You feel more than "sorry" you are wracked with pain, because this is someone who is so very close to your heart, and your grief is extreme.

Your Daughter is suffering from depression. Your entire world is turned upside down. Sometimes it is even hard to breathe when you see how sad she is, becuase your feel her pain as your own.

Now you are the Blessed Virgin, whose connection to each and every one of us is infinitely deeper even than that of a parent. She is not only our Mother in a very real sense, but she is our Perfect Mother. She doesn't have the barriers of selfishness, pride, and egoism to shield her - even in part - from the suffering of her children. She feels our pains, sorrows, and sins as much (or even perhaps more) than we do ourselves.

Just another little analogy:

Someone who has a very old, beat up car is not likely to notice or feel bad when a pebble puts a little dent in someone else's car. However, if someone who is in possession of a brand new, beautiful, flawless sports car, I promise you that that person will wince if they see the pebble strike and dent another person's car.

How much more then will it be with Mary, who is concerned with something infinitely more valuable than cars, and is also infinitely closer to them than the man in the example?

Ultimately, Sigga, if anything, I would argue that Mary's Immaculate-ness could only be argued in a way that it would [i]increase[/i] the pain and suffering she feels for us, not negate it.

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff

[M.SIGGA]

thanks Jeff, that's exactly the analogy I needed to hear and it helps tremendously

[daugher-of-Mary]

Wow, Jeff. That is beautiful! Thank you!

[Guest JeffCR07]

lol, geez guys, it wouldn't kill you guys to compliment me every once in a while, would it? lol ...

[mmmerf]

Nice work, Jeff.