Apotheoun Posted July 27, 2004 Share Posted July 27, 2004 [quote name='shelly_freak' date='Jul 26 2004, 08:41 PM']....nothing, except sin, is contrary to an act of virtue. But war is contrary to peace. Therefore war is always a sin. -St. Thomas Aquinas Many Christians talk about a "Just War", but the Gospel of Jesus is the Gospel of Peace, there is no way in the New Testament to justify any bloody War... it is difficult to justify even the just, defensive war if one takes seriously the message of the Sermon on the Mount, which is the heart of the Gospel (Mat.5:28-42). [/quote] It is always unwise to quote the [i]Objections[/i] from the [u]Summa Theologica[/u], because they are precisely the position that St. Thomas is arguing against. Thus, your quotation from the [u]Summa Theologica[/u], [i]Secunda Secundae Partis, Question 40, Article 1, Objection 3[/i], which says: "Further, nothing, except sin, is contrary to an act of virtue. But war is contrary to peace. Therefore war is always a sin," does not represent St. Thomas' position, and in fact he refutes [i]Objection 3[/i] in his [i]Reply to Objection 3[/i], from the same article, where he teaches the following: "Those who wage war justly aim at peace, and so they are not opposed to peace, except to the evil peace, which Our Lord 'came not to send upon earth' (Mt. 10:34). Hence Augustine says (Ep. ad Bonif. clxxxix): 'We do not seek peace in order to be at war, but we go to war that we may have peace. Be peaceful, therefore, in warring, so that you may vanquish those whom you war against, and bring them to the prosperity of peace.'" St. Thomas Aquinas, along with St. Augustine and others, is one of the Fathers of the Just War doctrine. In addition it is important to note where St. Thomas places his teaching on Just War, for he puts it in his section on the virtue of charity. In other words, to fail to act in a situation where one should use military force in order to redress the unjust actions of a tyrant, is a sin against charity, a mortal sin. Sometimes one [i]must[/i] go to war, and if the situation calls for it, and the public authorities fail to act, they commit a grave sin of omission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picchick Posted July 27, 2004 Share Posted July 27, 2004 [quote name='BeenaBobba' date='Jul 27 2004, 12:58 AM'] I disagree. With abortion, millions of babies are murdered. That's millions of [b]individual[/b] souls. Unjust killing is unjust killing, but the unjust death of one million people is worse than the unjust death of thousands of people. Both are very evil, but it's quite obvious that there is a greater magnitude of evil in killing a million people. If you're only remembering one soul in an unjust death, you're forgetting about millions of others who have died; and, in doing so, you're doing them a disservice. We've (unjustly) used nukes in the past, and this has not yet come to pass. There's no immediate evidence that it will, so to base your arguments around it is a bit...paranoid (for lack of a better word). You and I both cannot see what the future will bring. God bless, Jennifer [/quote] I have to agree with you. Abortion death and death resulting from war is not the same thing. Soldiers go to war knowing that their is a risk of dying. It is a consequence of war. I am not saying by any means that it is right. Babies do not choose their death or know that it is a "risk" of trying to live in today's world. They are killed outright and without warning. A soldier can speak and defend himself. A baby cannot. A soldier can defend themself. A baby cannot. God Bless, Margaret Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good Friday Posted July 27, 2004 Share Posted July 27, 2004 Please, people, by all means, continue supporting President Bush. Be Republicans. When Christ asks you why you continued to unabashedly support a murderer and tried to proclaim him a living saint, have fun rationalizing it for [b]Him[/b]. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted July 27, 2004 Share Posted July 27, 2004 George W. Bush is not a murderer. George W. Bush is not a saint. George W. Bush is a president who did what he saw as right. George W. Bush is a president whose policies I happen to agree with for the most part. I'd rather have Rick Santorum or Alan Keyes, but George W. Bush is the best mainstream presidential candidate I see. I am happy with him because he has convictions and sticks with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iacobus Posted July 27, 2004 Author Share Posted July 27, 2004 Al, I replied to your post in the reelect thread in Open Mic (and adhered to teaching like normal). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1337 k4th0l1x0r Posted July 27, 2004 Share Posted July 27, 2004 Bush supported sending the troops in. He did not support the bad guys firing back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted July 27, 2004 Share Posted July 27, 2004 nothing is ever black and white. sometimes i think people don't realize (or they just ignore) this fact. abortion doesn't stand by itself, it's not a stand alone issue. what about situations created by poverty, welfare, social injustices, etc that cause a woman to feel that abortion is the only way out? and if one candidate does more to eradicate the issues that make abortion rates go up, isn't that good? because if they are eradicating the issues, wouldn't that make the abortion rates go down? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted July 27, 2004 Share Posted July 27, 2004 [quote]what about situations created by poverty, welfare, social injustices, etc that cause a woman to feel that abortion is the only way out?[/quote] Oh Cry me a river: " Oh, I'm poor and the government gives me money, and, and the Government is going to pay for me to have this baby, and WIC is going to give me food for my Pregnancy and for the baby once it's born, and and and medicad is going to pay for their medical care, and maybe even mine, and I'll get rent assistance, and at least for 2 years or so completly free daycare. What ever shall I do? I guess I'll have to go to an abortionist and kill it( wouldn't want to call the baby a he now that might personify it--- or go and have some couple adopt it where they often pay for ALL our medical bills and maybe even rent, not to mention all those Church houses where they do the same thing). Yes I must kill it because thats MY ONLY CHOICE! Anyway being pregnant might interfer with my lifestyle." Please lets deal with reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1337 k4th0l1x0r Posted July 27, 2004 Share Posted July 27, 2004 [quote name='Lil Red' date='Jul 27 2004, 03:31 PM'] nothing is ever black and white. sometimes i think people don't realize (or they just ignore) this fact. abortion doesn't stand by itself, it's not a stand alone issue. what about situations created by poverty, welfare, social injustices, etc that cause a woman to feel that abortion is the only way out? and if one candidate does more to eradicate the issues that make abortion rates go up, isn't that good? because if they are eradicating the issues, wouldn't that make the abortion rates go down? [/quote] But this doesn't change the fact that it should be illegal. It would be like if all forms of murder were legal and the government tried to do all it can to keep people from getting angry to prevent murder instead of making murder illegal. Making abortion a felony crime is the first step to eradicating abortion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crusader1234 Posted July 27, 2004 Share Posted July 27, 2004 Hey, In his favour: his anti abortion stance, and although he doesn't have the charisma and outward intelligence that Clinton had, he does have a reassuring and steadfast quality that works in his favour throughout tragedies like 9/11. Against him: I am in favour of welfare and healthcare. I agree with the Pope and don't support the war on Iraq. I don't support the death penalty in the USA (it has its place, but not there). I dont like the strain he's put on international relations. As a 'guy' I think he seems nice enough and smart enough (he didn't get that degree just because of his daddy) so I'm not going to say he's a hick or anything - I just don't agree with some things he does. p.s. Iacobus isn't faithful anymore? woahhh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted July 27, 2004 Share Posted July 27, 2004 i'm not saying abortion shouldn't be illegal. it should be. but we still have to deal with the issues that go hand in hand with abortion. *once again reminds herself why she doesn't like to venture into the debate table* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcePrincessKRS Posted July 27, 2004 Share Posted July 27, 2004 [quote name='Good Friday' date='Jul 27 2004, 03:29 PM'] Please, people, by all means, continue supporting President Bush. Be Republicans. When Christ asks you why you continued to unabashedly support a murderer and tried to proclaim him a living saint, have fun rationalizing it for [b]Him[/b]. [/quote] I don't really think this is a fair assessment.... I don't think anyone is [b]unabashedly[/b] supporting him, they are defending the good things he has done to those who criticize him unfairly and don't give credit where its due. I admit Bush could certainly have done a few things better (as is the case for EVERYONE), but I'd rather "unabashedly" support him than Kerry! If Bush is a murderer what does that make Kerry who not only supported the war (for at least a little while) but currently supports abortion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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